The limits of Baptists?

[trustitl]

Well, I know in our church that baptism is necessary to become a member because Jesus commanded us to be baptised - so in obedience to His command, we will be baptized. If we refuse a command, then how is the church to know that the person will follow the other commands of the Lord?

All I said was that it was not a requirement to get into heaven but it is to get into the local baptist church. Do you disagree with that?

The bible says that he who believes and is baptised will be saved. You say that is water baptism and I think you are all wet.:smilewinkgrin:

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Now that is something worth getting into! :thumbs:

Until baptists see that baptism is not necessarily about water they will be limited.

Which baptism is it that saves? Which one is a requirement to be a member of the body of Christ?

Baptism of fire (no water)
Baptism of the holy ghost (no water)
Baptised unto Moses in the cloud (water was close but they didn't get wet)
Baptised into Jesus death (no water)
Baptised into one body (no water)

 

[cowboymatt]

For the record I am not a Cambellite. I have just as many calories as a regular Campbell :laugh: There is nothing that I believe or teach that originated with Alexander Campbell. He is not the founder of the Chruch of Christ. If he were, it would not be the Church of Christ, since it was established in Acts 2.

Alexander Campbell was only one of several who determined to lay aside their denominational creeds and confessions and simply rely on the New Testament for their authority in faith and practice.

Cowboymatt made a good point in his last post when he quoted his college professor, "The first baptist church started in England in 1611 or 1612..." That's almost 1600 years too late for the Baptist church to be the church we read about in the New Testament.

The issue of baptism is not to be determined by what any group teaches on the subject, but by what the Bible says about it. We can only be correct on the subject if we agree with the Bible. Believe it or not, the Bible has quite alot to say about it.

I went to school in Abilene, TX and just so you know, the Bible Conference at ACU is just like any denominational meeting that I have ever been to. CoC's are just as much a denomination as Methodists and Baptists are (just because you say otherwise doesn't prove anything...if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck...its a duck!). Also CoC's are just as disconnected from the church in the NT as every other Christian group in the world is (sorry, again, just because you say so doesn't make it so...otherwise you would all be living together, preaching the gospel on the streets, sharing all your possessions, etc...since you guys don't, you're not like the church in Acts).

 

[donnA]

All I said was that it was not a requirement to get into heaven but it is to get into the local baptist church. Do you disagree with that?

The bible says that he who believes and is baptised will be saved. You say that is water baptism and I think you are all wet.:smilewinkgrin:

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Now that is something worth getting into! :thumbs:

Until baptists see that baptism is not necessarily about water they will be limited.

Which baptism is it that saves? Which one is a requirement to be a member of the body of Christ?

Baptism of fire (no water)
Baptism of the holy ghost (no water)
Baptised unto Moses in the cloud (water was close but they didn't get wet)
Baptised into Jesus death (no water)
Baptised into one body (no water)

matt.3:
16When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water = WATER

mark 1:10 coming up from the water, = WATER

john 1:
30 therefore I came baptizing with water. = WATER
33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water =WATER
Jesus was baptized with water, so now you say theres a problem with us being baptised with water, like Jesus.

Which baptism is that saves?[/QUOTE]
none, it's Jesus who saves.

 

[donnA]

Well, I know in our church that baptism is necessary to become a member because Jesus commanded us to be baptised - so in obedience to His command, we will be baptized. If we refuse a command, then how is the church to know that the person will follow the other commands of the Lord?

Your right, the first command we are given, after salvation that is,isi to be baptised. Jesus said if you love Me keep My commands. Now we have a person come along and tell us following Jesus' commands are not necessary, and are unscriptural. Who do we chose to follow, Jesus, or someone with obvious contempt (calling baptist churches names)?

 

[jniles]

Being a Baptist my entire life gives me at least some right to say this: I am turned off sometimes by my own faith tradition...not because of theology but because of our disunity. I remember in my Baptist history class in college the professor started with this:

"The first baptist church started in England in 1611 or 1612...and a little while later it split. Take that model and repeat and you have Baptist history."

To me, that's sad.

That is truly sad that a professor only knows about "protestant" baptists and apparently knows nothing of the complete heritage of so called "baptists". He is only about 1584 years or so late and at least a dollar short.

One should at least read the few lectures on the "Trail of Blood" to get a grip on the truth of the historical matter. Here is a quick link in case you are so inclined:

http://bryanstation.com/trail_of_blood.htm

Later,

John the Baptist or Beloved
(you chose)

 

[Chemnitz]

I went to school in Abilene, TX and just so you know, the Bible Conference at ACU is just like any denominational meeting that I have ever been to. CoC's are just as much a denomination as Methodists and Baptists are (just because you say otherwise doesn't prove anything...if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck...its a duck!). Also CoC's are just as disconnected from the church in the NT as every other Christian group in the world is (sorry, again, just because you say so doesn't make it so...otherwise you would all be living together, preaching the gospel on the streets, sharing all your possessions, etc...since you guys don't, you're not like the church in Acts).

You went to school in Abilene? I am sorry. I grew up in Abilene and couldn't wait to leave.:tongue3:

In regards to the OP, I could never be baptist purely because of doctrine.
The denial of the Means of Grace.
Legalistic interpretation of scripture i.e. demanding specific order to things such as salvation.
The age of acountability
All variations of dispensationalism.
There are probably others but I am too tired to come up with a comprehensive list.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

In my opinion, one of the biggest limitations of Baptists is the wide doctrinal views within the Baptist community. (Of course, the reason for this is the congregational view of the church, but it can - and does - present some problems.)

Today, being Baptist can mean almost anything. As a result, it means almost nothing. Here are some examples.

I have friends who attend Baptist churches that are Calvinistic. Others attend Baptist churches which are Arninian.

Some Baptist churches use various Bible translations. Others emphasize the KJV, while others mandate the KJV.

Some Baptist churches have women in leadership roles, even as deacons. Other Baptist churches abhor such practices.

Some Baptist churches preach against drinking wine - to the point of preaching that Jesus turned water in grape juice. Others leave this as a conscience issue.

And the list goes on.

 

[D28guy]

Donna,

"matt.3:
16When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water = WATER

mark 1:10 coming up from the water, = WATER

john 1:
30 therefore I came baptizing with water. = WATER
33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water =WATER"

Well, I'm not sure what the poster you are adressing is advocating for sure...at 1st I thought he was a Church of Christer advocating baptismal regeneration, but now I dont think so.

Anyway, regarding water baptism...it is symbolic of the spiritual "baptism" that occures at regeneration. Jesus Christ does the baptising, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Brian30755]

For the people here who are not Baptists, what are some of the things you find to be limiting as far as being a Baptist goes? I'd be very interested in finding out. Thanks!

love,

Sopranette

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are asking for, but here goes:

My wife and I were both raised in Baptist churches. She always went to a small, independent Baptist church, and I always went to a Southern Baptist church.

We now attend a Pentecostal church, mainly because we enjoy the worship services more.

I know that you can't say that all Baptist Churches are like this, or that all Pentecostal churches are like that, but, in our experience, here are the differences we have found based on the churches we have visited:

In most Baptist churches we have attended, most folks sit around looking like they've just bit into a lemon. They keep looking at their watch, like they are just daring the preacher to keep them past 12:00. Some sleep. Most simply seem bored. In most Pentecostal churches we have attended, the people seem truly happy to be at church, like they would rather be there than anywhere else.

In most Baptist churches we have attended, everyone is a spectator only. They watch the choir worship in song. They listen to someone else pray. In most Pentecostal churches we have attended, more people actually participate in worship and in prayer.

In the Pentecostal churches we have attended, while the music is going on, people may stand, raise their hands, and worship the Lord, sometimes for quite a while. In most Baptist churches we have attended, you would be made to feel very uncomfortable if you did this.

I like the fact that, in the Pentecostal churches we have attended, the congregation prays corporately, meaning everyone (who wants to) prays out loud, together. This encourages me to actually pray, instead of listening to someone else pray. I've heard some on this board making fun of the way some people at their church pray. If you're praying out loud while they are praying, you don't think about finding fault with the way they pray.

I tend to like the music better at the Pentecostal churches we have attended. I like the fact that it's okay to clap your hands with the music.

So, to answer your question, what I have found "limiting" at most of the Baptist churches I have attended is the lack of the freedom to worship in the manner that you feel led to worship.

At most Baptist churches I've been to, we've sang 3 dead songs, listened to some dead preaching, and then went home just as dead as when we came. At most of the Pentecostal churches I've been to, I've left knowing that I had been in the presence of the Lord.

Fortunately, I've visited enough Baptist churches to know that these stereotypes don't apply to all of them; just like the stereotypes many people here have of the Pentecostals...they don't all flop around in the aisle, jump off the pews, and stand up during the middle of the sermon and start speaking in tongues.

I still consider myself a Baptist at heart. And I love my Baptist Brothers and Sisters. I just prefer going to a Pentecostal church for the reasons mentioned above.

I may have misunderstood exactly what you meant by "limiting". If so, I apologize.

 

[donnA]

Donna,




Well, I'm not sure what the poster you are adressing is advocating for sure...at 1st I thought he was a Church of Christer advocating baptismal regeneration, but now I dont think so.

Anyway, regarding water baptism...it is symbolic of the spiritual "baptism" that occures at regeneration. Jesus Christ does the baptising, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

Mike

the other poster is saying water baptism is unscriptural and worng.

 

[D28guy]

Friend of Spurgeon,

"
In my opinion, one of the biggest limitations of Baptists is the wide doctrinal views within the Baptist community. (Of course, the reason for this is the congregational view of the church, but it can - and does - present some problems.)

Today, being Baptist can mean almost anything. As a result, it means almost nothing. Here are some examples.

I have friends who attend Baptist churches that are Calvinistic. Others attend Baptist churches which are Arninian.

Some Baptist churches use various Bible translations. Others emphasize the KJV, while others mandate the KJV.

Some Baptist churches have women in leadership roles, even as deacons. Other Baptist churches abhor such practices.

Some Baptist churches preach against drinking wine - to the point of preaching that Jesus turned water in grape juice. Others leave this as a conscience issue.

And the list goes on."

What you describe is a good thing, not a bad thing. These are all areas where we have freedom of conscience. These are not foundational doctrines. These are matters of personal conscience.

The very very bad thing would be if all Baptist fellowships all believed identically. That would mean that some extreme, heavy handed, exceedingly smothering LEGALISM would be going on, or some unbiblical "Hierarchy" commanding people what they must or must not not believe.

Its not that they dont stand for anything. They stand firmly for lots of exceedingly good things.

One of them is that Jesus Christ is able to keep his people in line regarding these disputable issues, and He doesnt need the help of the local Pharisee's. :thumbs:

God bless,

Mike

 

[jniles]

I believe baptists are limited by there own misunderstandings as are all of us baptist or not. The main problem is we do not "rightly divide" (2Tim 2: 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.) the Word of God. That would be KJV for our KJ Only friends.

We all tend to read stuff not addressed to us and try to build a church on it. There is no gospel in the Acts PERIOD! There is plenty of gospel in the Gospels but if you will check it out it was ALL the Gospel of the Kingdom. Jesus coming for the lost sheep of Israel, not us, not Gentiles and not the COC or the RCC. Christ only spoke to two Gentiles, that we know about, and He never preached to them. Neither did the apostles during His ministry and even for some years after His ascension. You must go beyond the 8th chapter of Acts to even find "our apostle", Paul "The Apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom 11: 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: KJV).

This man is the first one to preach the Gospel of Grace summed up in I Cor 15: 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This is the Gospel of Grace and is the only gospel that applies to anyone today and there is no baptism in it except the baptism or being “placed into” the body of Christ “the universal church of believers”. Yes everyone gets it all a once including the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The One who cannot sin, but you still can and will. Try to keep it to a minimum as you will be dragging Him through it with you.

The Gospel of Grace was not given to the twelve but was a mystery revealed only to Paul. Paul further states in Roman 10: 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. This is the only thing that saves anyone today. It is the only gospel, it is the gospel of grace all others are in fact “another gospel” for other people or times.

We Baptists are in fact limited by our inability to understand who the scripture is addressed to and who it is not addressed to. But many others may be much more limited and placing their faith in the “works” of baptism and other rituals.

We are limited in our laziness to investigate the truth and rightly divide the Word of God which leads to our total freedom in Christ. A position that none has ever had it so easy in all history. We only have to believe or Faith + Nothing! Everyone else is in fact working or relying on a ritual or series of non-scriptural rituals to save them.

Sorry for the wall paper.

Later,

John the Blabtist

 

[D28guy]

"There is no gospel in the Acts PERIOD!"

Hmmmm. Dont agree with that.

Those there on the day of pentecost got born again, as did those in Cornelius's household. As well as the phillipian jailer, the eithiopian eunuch. The Apostle Paul was also born of the Spirit during that period.

In adition, we find these fine articulations of the gospel in the book of Acts...

"16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.
17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now[a] send you,
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ "

39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they[a] killed by hanging on a tree.
40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

"29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.
34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household."

I do however agree with what I believe was the point of your statement, and what you posted after that.....that being that the fullness of the Gospel message was not revealed in Acts, or even in the gospels, but rather in the Epistles, and most specifically, the Epistles of Paul.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[trustitl]

the other poster is saying water baptism is unscriptural and worng.

No I'm not. I looked back at all of my posts to see if I said something that could be interpreted that way. I couldn't find anything even close.

Actually, I am a true anabaptist. I was baptised as an infant in a reformed type denomination. Seeing that this was not a practice to be supported by scripture I sought out what God wanted for me. I was baptised as a believer almost 15 years after I was saved because I thought it would be the "obedient" thing to do. After another 5 years of growing in the faith, I don't think I did anything wrong when I did it, I just don't think I would have been disobedient if I hadn't.

Look at my posts again. I think you will see that you jumped to a conclusion on this issue of baptism. This is one of the things that limits baptists: my original point.

You would not have allowed me into your church during those 15 years I had not gone down into the water even though Jesus had allowed me into his without doing it.

 

[Sopranette]

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are asking for, but here goes:

My wife and I were both raised in Baptist churches. She always went to a small, independent Baptist church, and I always went to a Southern Baptist church.

We now attend a Pentecostal church, mainly because we enjoy the worship services more.

I know that you can't say that all Baptist Churches are like this, or that all Pentecostal churches are like that, but, in our experience, here are the differences we have found based on the churches we have visited:

In most Baptist churches we have attended, most folks sit around looking like they've just bit into a lemon. They keep looking at their watch, like they are just daring the preacher to keep them past 12:00. Some sleep. Most simply seem bored. In most Pentecostal churches we have attended, the people seem truly happy to be at church, like they would rather be there than anywhere else.

In most Baptist churches we have attended, everyone is a spectator only. They watch the choir worship in song. They listen to someone else pray. In most Pentecostal churches we have attended, more people actually participate in worship and in prayer.

In the Pentecostal churches we have attended, while the music is going on, people may stand, raise their hands, and worship the Lord, sometimes for quite a while. In most Baptist churches we have attended, you would be made to feel very uncomfortable if you did this.

I like the fact that, in the Pentecostal churches we have attended, the congregation prays corporately, meaning everyone (who wants to) prays out loud, together. This encourages me to actually pray, instead of listening to someone else pray. I've heard some on this board making fun of the way some people at their church pray. If you're praying out loud while they are praying, you don't think about finding fault with the way they pray.

I tend to like the music better at the Pentecostal churches we have attended. I like the fact that it's okay to clap your hands with the music.

So, to answer your question, what I have found "limiting" at most of the Baptist churches I have attended is the lack of the freedom to worship in the manner that you feel led to worship.

At most Baptist churches I've been to, we've sang 3 dead songs, listened to some dead preaching, and then went home just as dead as when we came. At most of the Pentecostal churches I've been to, I've left knowing that I had been in the presence of the Lord.

Fortunately, I've visited enough Baptist churches to know that these stereotypes don't apply to all of them; just like the stereotypes many people here have of the Pentecostals...they don't all flop around in the aisle, jump off the pews, and stand up during the middle of the sermon and start speaking in tongues.

I still consider myself a Baptist at heart. And I love my Baptist Brothers and Sisters. I just prefer going to a Pentecostal church for the reasons mentioned above.

I may have misunderstood exactly what you meant by "limiting". If so, I apologize.

Thank you, Brian. I have been in Baptist churches like the one you described, but I have been in other churches where there is a similar lack of warmth, to be fair. It's a shame, either way. To sleep or otherwise act bored is not only rude and disresectful, it absolutely kills the Spirit with which a church service can provide. I have been to other Baptist services that were very spontaneos and lively, too. Also, for a lot of Baptist women, including myself, we do not speak up in church at all, so that can account for some of the silence. I have never visited a Pentacostal church, but hope to one day.

love,

Sopranette

 

[trustitl]

Also, for a lot of Baptist women, including myself, we do not speak up in church at all, so that can account for some of the silence.

love,

Sopranette

If you are not talking at all because "baptist women don't speak in church" you are being limited by the traditions of the baptists. If however, you are obeying
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence", you are not limited, but rather functioning the way God designed things.

A child is not limited when they obey their parents. They are fully experiencing God's design. Likewise, a women was created to be a help meet. That is not baptist, that is truth.

A woman with her mouth shut does not impress God if she is not obeying the Word from the heart.

 

[Sopranette]

It would be for the second reason, trustitl.
Even in my home church, not all women obey this command. Personally, I find this rather shocking, but they have been members longer than I have, and the Pastor has not addressed this issue in the time I've been attending, so I don't bring it up.

love,

Sopranette

 

[annsni]

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are asking for, but here goes:

My wife and I were both raised in Baptist churches. She always went to a small, independent Baptist church, and I always went to a Southern Baptist church.

We now attend a Pentecostal church, mainly because we enjoy the worship services more.

I know that you can't say that all Baptist Churches are like this, or that all Pentecostal churches are like that, but, in our experience, here are the differences we have found based on the churches we have visited:

In most Baptist churches we have attended, most folks sit around looking like they've just bit into a lemon. They keep looking at their watch, like they are just daring the preacher to keep them past 12:00. Some sleep. Most simply seem bored. In most Pentecostal churches we have attended, the people seem truly happy to be at church, like they would rather be there than anywhere else.

In most Baptist churches we have attended, everyone is a spectator only. They watch the choir worship in song. They listen to someone else pray. In most Pentecostal churches we have attended, more people actually participate in worship and in prayer.

In the Pentecostal churches we have attended, while the music is going on, people may stand, raise their hands, and worship the Lord, sometimes for quite a while. In most Baptist churches we have attended, you would be made to feel very uncomfortable if you did this.

I like the fact that, in the Pentecostal churches we have attended, the congregation prays corporately, meaning everyone (who wants to) prays out loud, together. This encourages me to actually pray, instead of listening to someone else pray. I've heard some on this board making fun of the way some people at their church pray. If you're praying out loud while they are praying, you don't think about finding fault with the way they pray.

I tend to like the music better at the Pentecostal churches we have attended. I like the fact that it's okay to clap your hands with the music.

So, to answer your question, what I have found "limiting" at most of the Baptist churches I have attended is the lack of the freedom to worship in the manner that you feel led to worship.

At most Baptist churches I've been to, we've sang 3 dead songs, listened to some dead preaching, and then went home just as dead as when we came. At most of the Pentecostal churches I've been to, I've left knowing that I had been in the presence of the Lord.

Fortunately, I've visited enough Baptist churches to know that these stereotypes don't apply to all of them; just like the stereotypes many people here have of the Pentecostals...they don't all flop around in the aisle, jump off the pews, and stand up during the middle of the sermon and start speaking in tongues.

I still consider myself a Baptist at heart. And I love my Baptist Brothers and Sisters. I just prefer going to a Pentecostal church for the reasons mentioned above.

I may have misunderstood exactly what you meant by "limiting". If so, I apologize.

I think you'd like our Baptist church - DH makes sure that the worship is not dead. And while we don't do the 'everyone pray at once out loud' in the service, we HAVE done it at times in the service and in other situations and we're certainly not afraid of the raising of voices together. LOL

 

[BobRyan]

For the people here who are not Baptists, what are some of the things you find to be limiting as far as being a Baptist goes? I'd be very interested in finding out. Thanks!

love,

Sopranette

Baptist beliefs and practices are the closest to my own denomination of any other church - especially Seventh-day Baptists and free-will baptists.

I have attended quite a few Southern Baptist worship services and really enjoyed them a lot.

"The most" limiting thing that I can see with Baptist teaching in general is "story telling" when it comes to eschatology. When you are on a subject about free will, or grace, or the pre-mill literal 2nd coming, or Baptism, Creationism, God's Word being inspired, or the deity of Christ - you can always find some strong bible based Baptists arguing in favor of these Bible doctrines - in favor of free will, sola scriptura, the Ten Commandments and arguing for Perseverance instead of OSAS - and at times you can even find Baptists endorsing the spiritual gifts of 1Cor 12. They have good Bible arguments and make a complelling case.

But as for "limits" in their teaching - I see the following;

As soon as you get them on the subject of Daniel or Revelation - everyone seems to go "loopy" (as my daughters would say) simply making up stories that "sound interesting" but are nothing like the Biblically sound systematic studies that they put together on other doctrines. And there are about as many variations to those stories as there are Baptists.

Those who support God's Ten Commandments generally also supporting "editing them" as in the case of D.L Moody and the 4th commandment.

Those who do accept the "ONE Gospel" teaching of Paul in Gal 1:6-11 and the fact that ALL 66 books of the bible are both inspired "And to be used for doctrine" according to 2Tim 3:16-17, still struggle with accepting a full understanding of pre-cross Christianity starting from the fall of Adam as "Righteousness by faith" where ALL saints had to be born-again and ALL were "justified by faith apart from the works of the Law" as we see in Romans 3. Hint "the Scripture of NT saints IS the OT!". The result is that they think of the bible in the OT as "written by Moses" and "the Law of Moses" with Jesus comiing along later and giving the "Law of God" or "Law of Christ" as if these are in opposition or one is not really authored by God and the other is.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darron Steele]

On the profile of Sgt. Fury I see that they are a member of "Needmore church of christ" (Campbellight). The campbellights believe that baptism is ESSENTIAL for salvation and this is the reason why Sgt. Fury says : " One is not likely to hear an invitation like that given by the apostle Peter in Acts 2:38 from a Baptist pulpit." In addition to Acts 2:38 they will also quote Mark 16:16 and other verses to support baptismal regeneration (the belief that baptism is essential for salvation)...

Alexander Campbell accepted the possibility of salvation without baptism. This is at discordance with the commonly-enforced belief among the Churches of Christ.

Most Churches of Christ would have no use for A. Campbell. They would insist that he held too many `denominational heresies' and was too accepting of various Christian groups. Many would shun him, and many would marginalize him, but in most, he would be like an outsider.

Ahhh - gotcha! Now it makes sense. I couldn't understand what the issue was since that's how I've heard the majority of churches teach - repent and be baptized. But of course, we don't believe in baptismal regneration. But I understand now. Thanks!

1) My biggest problem with the Baptist denomination has to do with baptism and conversion.

In every Baptist congregation I have been among, water baptism is downplayed. I certainly do not believe that Scripture teaches that a believer remains unsaved until s/he is baptized. I most certainly do NOT believe there is any such thing as an unsaved believer -- baptized or not.

In Scripture, every single person who would come to Christ was baptized promptly. Every Christian was assumed baptized. At Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus told us to be making disciples of Him, to be baptizing disciples, and to be teaching disciples to obey what He taught. He placed baptism right in between His directive to make disciples of Him and teach them to obey His teachings. I believe He expected baptism to be done right as converts were being made -- exactly what we see in the Testament.

However, in the Baptist congregations I have been among, when the preacher is urging any non-believer in the audience to become a Christian, there is no call to be baptized. If water baptism is mentioned, people are encouraged not to feel like they need to be baptized right then. No convert is permitted to be baptized immediately. Further, if s/he is not sure s/he wants to be bound to that congregation, congregational authorities will actually withhold baptism -- even though Christ mandated that His church baptize disciples.

I cannot stand these things! Christ linked baptism intimately with conversion. Common practice among Baptists, however, works strongly oppositional to this.

2) At the same time, I am opposed to what is called "closed membership." This means that full standing in a congregation is denied to those who are not Scripturally baptized.

There are many Christians who have been misled to think that non-biblical `forms of baptism' are legitimate baptism. They believe that if they were to be Scripturally baptized, they would actually be sinning. Therefore, although they do not realize it, they stay unbaptized -- and wrongly think that to do otherwise would displease the Lord.

A church congregation should be open to all Christians -- including those who are misled. The Lord adds all of Christ's followers to one church -- Acts 2:47. I do not believe any congregation of the Lord's church is in a position to exclude a person whom the Lord has added. I believe that we must fully accept in full standing any person whom the Lord has accepted.

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Now, for both of these limitations that made me decide not to join a Baptist congregation, I point out that the Baptist denominations have a lot to offer the church at large. The common insistence that a Christian should be baptized if s/he expects to be taken seriously as a Christian is honorable. The insistence on immersion and as believers is very good. Individual soul liberty is a teaching that is very sound Scripturally when followed. The common teaching that Scripture should be believed in all details, and that biblical morality is right, is good. The Christians who serve Christ among them offer and give much to the cause of the Lord. However, this thread asked for objections, and I gave my `biggies.'