The Line Between Saved And Unsaved

[MB]

In several threads as of late, there has been quite a difference of opinion about the term "carnal Christian." We know that as saved, born again Christians, we are a new creature in Christ. Yet we know that the old sin nature remains while here on earth. So, and we all realize we cannot see anyone else's heart, how would one determine if a person is a new creature in Christ if they are sinning for a season? My own opinion is that yes we do sin, but as a child of God, and the Holy Spirit in us, we return to a walk with the Lord in short order. I believe that those in perpetual sin with no discernable difference before salvation were never saved. Yet, at the same time, I do not believe in a sinless existence after salvation.

Ultimately no one can know the heart of another. I don't believe we can judge another's Salvation. If a person says they believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. Who are we to say in our hearts that they aren't saved. We can't walk in there shoes. There isn't even one of us who has no sin. especially when it's sin just to think about it. I use to think that when I got older it would get eaiser. No truth in that.

I would appreciate all comments, and have an open mind to different aspects of this. Hopefully, we can keep out Calvinism and Ariminianism from the thread.

I think about passing a bar as a drunk staggers out. How do we know what his eternal state is? Also, how do we know the state of the person we only see on Sundays that appears to lead a Christ like life?

We don't know however we will one day in the presence of God.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Ultimately no one can know the heart of another. I don't believe we can judge another's Salvation. If a person says they believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. Who are we to say in our hearts that they aren't saved. We can't walk in there shoes. There isn't even one of us who has no sin. especially when it's sin just to think about it. I use to think that when I got older it would get eaiser. No truth in that.

We don't know however we will one day in the presence of God.
MB

All I know is that calvinism/arminianism or any other Ism does not save, jesus does!

 

[Iconoclast]

We will still have the 'sin principle" dewelling within us, still have that of us that wants to disobey God, for we can chose to waqlk afetr the flesh, and be weak and ineffective in living for thre Lord, or walking in the Spirit!

NO.....13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh

 

[Iconoclast]

I would wonder how those who reject the possibility of a carnal christian interpret 1 Cor. 3...Paul seems to use two categories of descriptors to describe, (it seems to me) the same people:

good: in christ, temple of God, holy, Christ's, saved as through fire.
Bad: fleshly, jealousy & strife, works burned up, behaving only in a human way.

They were Spiritual people{believers} who were acting out of character in this one sin. Paul is rebuking them saying they are acting as men, as carnal, as natural men not having the Spirit.

3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but

He wanted to.

as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

But their behaviour is not any different from the natural man of 1 Cor2.....look up the GK. words used, and contrasted here and in Romans 8 by Paul.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

They were not growing,but remaining as babes.....as carnal....

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

As far as their actions were...they were just like the carnal....as carnal

3 And I, brethren, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly -- as to babes in Christ;

2 with milk I fed you, and not with meat, for ye were not yet able, but not even yet are ye now able,

3 for yet ye are fleshly, for where [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not fleshly, and in the manner of men do walk?

4 for when one may say, `I, indeed, am of Paul;' and another, `I -- of Apollos;' are ye not fleshly?

This is the particular sin being identified.
says that sarkikos describes the lusts which have their source in man's corrupt and fallen nature, and the man is sarkikos who allows to the flesh a place which does not belong to it of right; in 1 Cor. 3:1 sarkinos is an accusation far less grave than sarkikos would have been. The Corinthians saints were making no progress, but they were not anti-spiritual in respect of the particular point with which the Apostle was there dealing. In 1 Cor 3:3,4, they are charged with being sarkikos.

Listen to these messages for an explanation of the greek words used here.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=6709225934

If you go to the 34 minute mark,you will learn the teaching of the two greek words used for the one english word translated....carnal
At the 49-54 minute mark, the greek words showing the Old nature is co -crucified are explained...we do not do it, it is done to us by the Spirit if we are christians.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11110485122
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=11110485918


4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;

6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace;

7 because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,

8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ -- this one is not His;

 

[Iconoclast]

The inward man is saved and always wants to please Him. Our flesh is still in the same condemned state, and only wants to please itself. When our flesh rises up, the Spirit battles it, and brings it under subjection. That is why we have the warfare Aposlte Paul wrote about. The old nature of the inner man is gone at the point of salvation, but the flesh is still the same. Does that clear up what I was trying to convey?

BTW, how is the missus and the "bundle of joy"? I pray that you and they are doing well.

:thumbs::applause::thumbs::wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

saturneptune

I hope this does not result in massive fainting spells, but I agree with Icon on the subject of the carnal Christian. I take his meaning for carnal Christian to be an unchanged life style with no repentance, or very little change.

it is so...or Paul would have contradicted himself later in the letter and in Romans 8:1-14....
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.


here he speaks of one....who is called a brother...
he does not say he is a brother...he says he is called a brother....if he is living a carnal lifestyle...he is carnal in the heart...

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
.

No one believes a Christian does not sin after salvation. No one believes that a saved person shows no sign of a changed life through Jesus Christ. That is a lot of common ground.

Of course, the final factor is the heart, which only God and the person involved know. Our observations are more or less flawed, depending on how much we notice. If a person has the Holy Spirit in him or her, then any sin will ring a bell, send up a red flag. The person will repent and get back on course for the Lord, and in short order.

We are to mortify sin By the Spirit.We are still able to sin, but not under it's power. God will chasten christians who are drifting into sin.

 

[Yeshua1]

[/B]

NO.....13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh

a Chrsitian can chose to live and walk in the flesh, in the sense of relying upon their own willpower and efforts to serve and obey the lord, or else chose to surrender to the Spriit and have fruit and faithfulness in service/living for God...

Think we are just using "flesh" in different ways here!