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The Local Church - Baptist theology's weakest link?

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Rufus, are you going to engage with the issue or not?

I'm asking you to seriously consider the 'local church' point in the light of Scripture, and in particular:

1. How can the phrase 'pillar of truth' refer to the Ephesian church alone, given its chequered history even in the NT period?

2. Whilst we're at, how on earth can the phrase "the body/ the body of Christ" as used to describe the church by Paul, refer to the 'local church' at Corinth, then Ephesus and also Collosae? How many bodies does Jesus have? How many Christs are there? Only one, last time I looked and therefore this phrase used in the Pauline NT must be describing the universal church.

Yours in Christ

Matt
 

rufus

New Member
this phrase used in the Pauline NT must be describing the universal church
No, it must be describing the "local churches" to which Paul ministered and wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

BTW, I've been engaged in the conversation.

I declare uneqivocably that NO UNIVERSAL CHURCH exists. Period!

Rufus
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Church Universal--

1. Has never assembled
2. Has never preached the gospel
3. Has never baptized
4. Has never had communion
5. Has never disciplined members
6. Has never sent out missionaries
7. Has never existed--visibly or invisibly

Selah,

Bro. James
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
How many bodies has Jesus?

"Where ever two or three of you are gathered together in My Name, there am I in the midst."

"By one Spirit we are all baptized into one body."

Every New Testament Church can qualify under the above statements.

What the total number of NT Churches might be is beyond my knowledge--Jesus knows them that are His.

Jesus' body is visible period--not universal--invisible or visible--universal.


Selah,

Bro. James
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
But James, if there is only one body, and if the body is the local church, then why aren't you a member of the church? I am, and I didn't see you yesterday.
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A member of The Body--

Every member of a New Testament Assembly is a part of THAT Body.

We assembled twice this past Lord's Day for worship, praise and prayer. Whether I was there or any particular person was there or not is irrelevant. "Where ever two or three of you are gathered together IN MY NAME, there am I in the midst." (Jesus said that.)

Jesus is the head; we are about 30 members which make up the remainder of the body. We have one elder, our pastor. We have no deacons. We have two missionaries which we have sent from this body to Thailand and Romania. They are members of this body.

We answer to no board, synod, convention, denomination or "holy see". We give account to Jesus--Him alone.

We are "the Church"--church is not a good choice of words to translate: "assembly"). "Church" has an unwarranted "universal" connotation which is not scriptural. This is where the "holy see" came from--and the daughters of Rome have promulgated the idea-- universal, invisible.

Every New Testament Assembly qualifies as The Body of Christ and is "The Church."

Selah,

Bro. James
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Which body?

What ever body of which membership has been extended.

Contrary to the universal church doctrine, all of the saved are not in "the assembly".

To say that all churches in "Christendom" make up the body of Christ as some mystical universal invisible "body" is about as ludicrous as "the unleavened bread" changing into the literal body of Christ at the pronouncement of the latin words by a duly authorized "priest".

There are dozens of false doctrines out there with a "Christian" facade. To say that all of this false teaching is part of the "body of Christ" is to say that Jesus has not kept His Bride undefiled--He said He would never leave Her nor forsake Her.

A disjointed, dismembered, mutated body has no function in physiology or ecclesiology.

Would the LDS be considered part of Christ's body? They claim to be Christian.

Selah,

Bro. James
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bro. James, with respect, you are dodging the issue. LDS and all those who are not saved are obviously not part of the Body. Please burn your straw man accordingly. Not all churches (assemblies, if you like)in 'Christendom' make up the Body of Christ; I don't think anyone here is asserting that. What is being submitted is that all believers are part of that One Body, simply by virtue of their being believers, and that it is Scripturally correct to refer to that collective as 'the church' (with or without a capital 'c').

Yours in Christ

Matt
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
But James, the point is that Christ only has one body. Yet there are many local churches. Therefore, the local church alone does not qualify to be the body of Christ. They are a visible representation of the body.

You apparently have some saved who are not in the church. That won't work. All saved are in teh body (1 Cor 12:13). But not all who are in the local body are truly saved.

The LDS, or any other false church is not a part of the body. It is not their claim that matters, but the claims of God's word.

So I repeat the question, if Christ only has one body, then where were you on Sunday? I didn't see you in the body.
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"local" church does not qualify...

What exactly makes Her not qualified?

She has The Holy Spirit from the Day of Pentecost--another Comforter.

She has members fittly joined together with Jesus as the Head.

She executes His commands--preach, baptize, teach.

She is the pillar and ground of the truth.

She disciplines the membership.

She worships God in Spirit and in Truth.

She sends out missionaries who start more sovereign assemblies as they preach the gospel to every creature in all the earth.

She prepares Herself for the coming of the Bridegroom.

What part does She lack to be the Body of Christ?

How about the Mother Church at Rome and her daughters--is this the body of Christ?

Selah,

Bro. James
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
By "not qualify" I assume you mean not qualify to be the Body of Christ as a local church? Let's consider your points...

Holy Spirit - the entire church - all Christians - have this. Not everyone in a local church will be saved and therefore it is inaccurate that the local church as a body will "have the HS"

Members joined together - provided they are all saved, check.

Executes His commands - some are better than others at doing that

Pillar and ground of the truth - ditto

Disciplines the membership - ditto

Worship - hope so, but again only genuine believers within a local assembly can do this; more accurate to say that all believers throughout the world do this

Missionaries - hopefully yes, but again they must be believers first and foremost not members

Second coming - all Christians should prepare for this

What part does She lack - simply that She is a 'part' of the picture, not the whole

The RCC - in so far as it contains genuine saved believers, those believers are part of the Body of Christ.

Yours in Christ

Matt
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
In the New Testament the word church is used in two different ways. Most frequently the word is used to refer to a local body of believers, a single congregation. I will call this the small "c" church. However, on occasion the word is used to refer to the entire number of the elect, all those who will be gathered into one under Jesus Christ [Acts 20:28; Hebrews 12:23; Colossians 1:18, 24,25; Ephesians 1:22, 23; Ephesians 2:19-22; Ephesians 5:23-32]. I will call this the large "C" Church.

All the members of a local congregation or church may not be true believers. However, all true believers are incorporated into the Church [the Body of Jesus Christ or the Bride of Jesus Christ] regardless which local congregation that are associated with, in fact even those who are not part of a local body.

OR
 
"The automobile has replaced the ox-cart." Which one? Any and all. "The American family is in crisis." Which one? Many individual families. We use generic terms all the time in many areas, with no apparent confusion. Why are we confused when the Scripture speaks of the (true, local) church generically? There is, of course, the "ultimate, invincible" church, in glory - but even there it will be a local and visible assembly. If Dr. Scofield had not popularized the "universal body from Pentecost to the Rapture"
idea, few would ever have considered it. Even the 1689 London and the Philadelphia confessions, while more influenced by the Presbyterian/
protestant views so strongly held in 17th Century Great Britain, aren't "Scofieldian", and make a strong emphasis on "each particular church," and say (Ch. 26, Art. 14), "As each church, and all the members of it, are bound to pray continually for the good and prosperity of all the churches of Christ, in all places, and upon all occasions to further it (every one within the bounds of their places and callings, in the exercise of their gifts and graces) so the churches, when planted by the providence of God, so as they may enjoy opportunity and advntage for it, ought to hold communion among themselves, for their peace, increase of love, and mutual edification." That sounds to our ears like "open communion" at the Lord's Table, but Ch. 30, "Of the Lord's Supper,"
calls this "ordinance" and not "communion," and in section 8 closes the Lord's table toward "all ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Christ, so they are unworthy of the Lord's table . . . ." Note their distinction; communion with Christ comes first, they then call for an acceptable baptism, and then partaking at the Lord's table. Clearly, if we are to exclude "all ignorant and ungodly persons," we cannot allow open communion in the modern sense. That this was a subject of debate in the period I grant immediately; that is (in part) why we have the New Hampshire Confession.
Also, the earlier (usually dated 1646) London confession is even stronger on each particular local congregation being a complete church in itself, with Christ as its Head and the members as members of His body there. "Ecclesia" demands the ability to assemble, as in the governing bodies of the Greek city-states (cf. Acts 19).

We have the universal family of the born-again; why do we also need to use the word which means a congregation or assembly to refer to all believers? Every genuinely saved person (RC, LDS,
etc.) is my brother or sister in the family of God, born again just as I am; only scripturally baptized believers are church members. Ideally, every saved person ought to be also a baptized member of a body belonging to Christ. It is far easier for the Universal Christ to be Head of each (local) body than for those who never see one another, have no acquaintance, never meet, to be an assembly. Clearly, we are speaking in a metaphor, just as with "God's field," "building," etc. - but where the concrete term affects us individually is in the only true kind of church, a local, visible assembly of scripturally immersed believers with Christ as Head and the Holy Spirit as heart and blood stream, pumping life through that body.

Yours for the old "landmarks" - Charles Blair - Rom. 8:28
 

Bro. James

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Universal Church--visible or invisible--

Is like worshipping the "unknown god".

Is man's church--the way he likes it.

Is headed by the god of this world.

"Come out from among them saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing."

Selah,

Bro. James
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bro. James (and indeed anyone else who wants to have a go at this one), which church is Paul writing about in Col 1:18-29, with particular reference to vv.24-25?

Yours in Christ

Matt
 
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