The LOCALK Body of Christ

[Herb Evans]

EdSutton]FTR, which church did Paul persecute? Since you, Herb Evans, seem to believe each congregation is "the body", and Paul said "I persecuted the church of God", which local body was it? Granted he started in Jerusalem, but Acts 9:31 certainly seems to broaden that some, by speaking of multiple local churches that then had peace, and Paul's own testimony in Acts 26:9-11.

Well, as you have observed, there was only one church at that time. Still, Paul uses the church in the generic sense as he does the husband and the wife. In such use the church, the husband, and the wife stand for all the churches, husbands, and wives. Genric use of language is used to day in regard to the court, the government, the state, and etc. Persecuted saints composed that persecuted church.-- Herb Evans

You would be correct were you to surmise that I don't believe "the church" and/or "the body" is limited to "The LOCALK Body of Christ"(sic)?? , although I think it (The LOCAL Body) is one valid and legitimate reference according to Scripture. And I would agree that the local church is spoken of far more than any 'universal' church. But the attempt to limit the "all" in I Cor. 12:13 certainly seems to be stretching language of Scripture to fit theology.

The vein of common experience and editorial "we's" of Paul are too often misconstrued to conotate an extremely stretched view of the church of all believers. You will note that in the few times that universal church advocates use certain passages that they are careful to use only the ones whose context does not catch them in the act of misapplying such scripture. There is only a handful of such cases available to them. Okay, you don't believe that "the Body' is limited to the local church. But I have found out a long time ago that what I believe is not necessarily what I can prove. First Co. 12:13 must not be separated from 12:12, context which interprets 12:13. -- Herb Evans

Does Scripture speak of a "local church", as a local church body? Absolutely.
Does Scripture speak of a church in a broader sense than this although still limited? Absolutely.

I challenge this broader sense, unless one refers to the generic sense. The invisible, mystical church in the sky is a figment of Martin Luther's imagination ( I am a former Lutheran). -- Herb Evans

Does Scripture speak of "the church" as one body in a singular sense? Absolutely.
And I would add that the idea, rightly or wrongly of the church as a bride, gives added sense to this. For I think there is absolutley NO speaking of the Lord as a polygamist!! That would contradict all the teaching I've seen in the Gospels, and the 'chaste virgin' analogy, as well! Ed

I think your probem here is not to realize the word, body, temple, flock, and bride is used metaphorically in scripture. Such use provides us with the male gender, the female, the neuter, and the animalistic sense. Metaphors can hardly be stretched into invisible, mystical, or universal entities without abusing the scriptures. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

This is not only a debate forum, but also a Christian debate forum. Gentle answers are not signs of weakness here.

Now can we get back to the OP? I'd be interested in hearing more on the subject.

But do gentle jabs, insults, and pejoratives get a pass from you. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Maybe a "ham hock"?? :applause: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

Careful, this is a Christian debate list! Right Brother Bell? -- Herb Evans

 

[Tom Butler]

But do gentle jabs, insults, and pejoratives get a pass from you. -- Herb Evans


As a matter of fact, they do.

In addition, the tone of my posts is such that they are unlikely to draw such things.

 

[Herb Evans]

Tom Butler]But do gentle jabs, insults, and pejoratives get a pass from you. -- Herb Evans

As a matter of fact, they do.

I have observed that. I guess you will give my gentle responses a pass also, unless you engage in double standards or discriminate against a brother. -- herb Evans

In addition, the tone of my posts is such that they are unlikely to draw such things.

I see, I cause people to do what they do. It is my fault that they do them. Well, that is politically correct. I should not post raw truth and water it down a bit? -- Herb Evans

 

[EdSutton]

The LOCAL Body of Christ

"Well, as you have observed, there was only one church at that time." Herb Evans

I observed no such thing. With all due respect, you are reading into this something I did not say. Even more importantly, Scripture does not say this, either. - Ed

"19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
Saul Preaches Christ
20 Immediately he preached the Christ[c] in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.
21 Then all who heard were amazed, and said, “Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?” "
" 31 Then the churches[d] throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied." (Acts 9:19-21, 31 - NKJV)

While Acts 9:19-21 do not explicitly speak of 'church', the language is consistent between both the groups at Jerusalem and Damascus, hence if one was 'a church' surely the other was also. As I would read these two passages, there would have had to have been a minimum of eight churches, and probably many more than this, as Judea, Galilee, and Samaria cover a fairly wide area, en toto.

Since it is past my bedtime, I'll cut this short but ask one question more? Why should your interpretation of what is or what is not a metaphorical, analogous, generic, and/or symbolic use of language be superior to mine, or vice versa? What are and who decides on the criteria?

Ed

 

[Herb Evans]

EdSutton

"Well, as you have observed, there was only one church at that time." -- Herb Evans

I observed no such thing. With all due respect, you are reading into this something I did not say. Even more importantly, Scripture does not say this, either. - Ed

Oh! Excuse me, I was not aware that there was another church AT THAT TIME besides the Jerusalem church. WOULD YOU PLEASE GIVE ME THE NAME OF IT OR THE VERSE AND CHAPTER WHERE IT WAS AT prior to Paul's conversion? -- HERB EVANS

"19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
Saul Preaches Christ
20 Immediately he preached the Christ[c] in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.
21 Then all who heard were amazed, and said, “Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?” "
" 31 Then the churches[d] throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied." (Acts 9:19-21, 31 - NKJ[/B]

While Acts 9:19-21 do not explicitly speak of 'church', the language is consistent between both the groups at Jerusalem and Damascus, hence if one was 'a church' surely the other was also. As I would read these two passages, there would have had to have been a minimum of eight churches, and probably many more than this, as Judea, Galilee, and Samaria cover a fairly wide area, en toto.

You make an excellent point for disciples being in Damascus, but you cannot seem to make up your mind whether the church at Jerusalem was "a" church or "the" church. Also, you do not cite a church in Damascus, only disciples that Paul was going to persecute and Paul was on his way to get authority to persecute disciples "of this way," since the Jewish CIA recognized that they had fled from Jerusalem.

Even later, after Paul was saved, he evangelistically preached in the synagogues (plural) not the church or churches. Paul's persecution was that of the church in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1-5; 9:13, 19). It was this persecution of the church in Jerusalem that caused the saints to be scattered every where, including DAMASCUS (Acts 8:1-5). So, in Acts 8:1-5, there was only one church, the Jerusalem church, from TWO different perspectives.

The Damascus and elsewhere disciples were hardly mission planted and established churches at that time. For all practical purposes they still belonged to the Jerusalem church but were fugitives. Later or during Paul's conversion, some may have organized as churches. Your best point is Acts 9:31, but it is after the fact and the past Jerusalem church persecution. Still that passage goes against the idea that you are trying to establish in that it view the church as an invisible, mystical entity of all believers, for it says here "churches" and not church.-- Herb Evans

Since it is past my bedtime, I'll cut this short but ask one question more? Why should your interpretation of what is or what is not a metaphorical, analogous, generic, and/or symbolic use of language be superior to mine, or vice versa? What are and who decides on the criteria? Ed

I hope that you had a nice sleep. It is not a question of superiority, we are talking about interpreting scripture. In my view, it is self evident, unless you deny that the husband and the wife are used generically. that would probably end our discussion. Also, if you deny that the church is presented in metaphors, FLOCK, BODY, BRIDE, TEMPLE, that would show that you are not able to surrender any point in a discussion. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Generics 101

The Invisible, Universal, Mystical Synagogue of All Jews​

Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in THE synagogue, and in THE temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. – John 18:20

And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to THE synagogue. – Acts 18:7

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are THE synagogue of Satan. – Rev. 2:9

Behold, I will make them of THE synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.-- Rev. 3:9

Often, we run into those who reject and/or deny the generic use of the term “THE church" as they seek to gainsay and combat "Local Church Onlies.” Such an intentional resistance to truth in the light of the generic use of “THE husband” and “THE wife” in scripture illustrates the length that some will go to establish the invisible, mystical, universal, ethreal church of all believers by taking advantage of the nuances of language.

Well, we have discovered some more invisible, mystical, universal, ethereal entities in scripture. It is THE invisible, mystical, universal, ethereal synagogue of all Jews. Also, not to be out done, there is THE invisible, mystical, universal, ethereal synagogue of Satan of non-Jews. Just thought that you would like to know the rest of the story! – Herb Evans

 

[EdSutton]

The Invisible, Universal, Mystical Synagogue of All Jews​

Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in THE synagogue, and in THE temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. – John 18:20

And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to THE synagogue. – Acts 18:7

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are THE synagogue of Satan. – Rev. 2:9

Behold, I will make them of THE synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.-- Rev. 3:9

Often, we run into those who reject and/or deny the generic use of the term “THE church" as they seek to gainsay and combat "Local Church Onlies.” Such an intentional resistance to truth in the light of the generic use of “THE husband” and “THE wife” in scripture illustrates the length that some will go to establish the invisible, mystical, universal, ethreal church of all believers by taking advantage of the nuances of language.

Well, we have discovered some more invisible, mystical, universal, ethereal entities in scripture. It is THE invisible, mystical, universal, ethereal synagogue of all Jews. Also, not to be out done, there is THE invisible, mystical, universal, ethereal synagogue of Satan of non-Jews. Just thought that you would like to know the rest of the story! – Herb Evans

Do you give Paul Harvey any credit for the last sentence?

BTW, I have not denied or disagreed with any if these uses of language, per se. I have merely observed that Scripture allows for and yes, teaches, "a church" may be of greater scope than a "local Church". I agree; you don't. I guess we can maybe agree to disagree.

Ed

 

[Herb Evans]

EdSutton]Do you give Paul Harvey any credit for the last sentence?

Well,if he wants it. -- Herb Evans

BTW, I have not denied or disagreed with any if these uses of language, per se. I have merely observed that Scripture allows for and yes, teaches, "a church" may be of greater scope than a "local Church". I agree; you don't. I guess we can maybe agree to disagree. --Ed

Okay! -- Herb Evans

 

[Tom Butler]

Herb Evans said:
I guess you will give my gentle responses a pass also, unless you engage in double standards or discriminate against a brother. -- herb Evans

Tom:
Gentle responses should always get a pass.

I cause people to do what they do. It is my fault that they do them. Well, that is politically correct. I should not post raw truth and water it down a bit? -- Herb Evans

Tom:
I get uncomfortable with in-your-face posts, whoever it is. I'm for civil discourse from everybody. You have the right to post what you see as truth, undiluted. And you are quite good at making strong arguments for your positions.

 

[Herb Evans]

Herb Evans said:

I guess you will give my gentle responses a pass also, unless you engage in double standards or discriminate against a brother. -- herb Evans

Tom:
Gentle responses should always get a pass.

That depend on what one's Clintonest meaning of "Gentle" is. My very first posts on the Bible issue on Baptist Board (now locked) taught me that I was not going to have an easy time on the forum with raw undiluted truth.-- Herb Evans

I cause people to do what they do. It is my fault that they do them. Well, that is politically correct. I should not post raw truth and water it down a bit? -- Herb Evans

Tom:
I get uncomfortable with in-your-face posts, whoever it is. I'm for civil discourse from everybody. You have the right to post what you see as truth, undiluted. And you are quite good at making strong arguments for your positions.

I use measured response, Insults and pejoratives on me are met with accordingly. I would prefer dialogue on the issues, undiluted, but One Liner Ollies tend to hinder that, not able to post anything else. Thank you for your input. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

Herb Evans said:
I guess you will give my gentle responses a pass also, unless you engage in double standards or discriminate against a brother. -- herb Evans

Tom:
Gentle responses should always get a pass.

I cause people to do what they do. It is my fault that they do them. Well, that is politically correct. I should not post raw truth and water it down a bit? -- Herb Evans

Tom:
I get uncomfortable with in-your-face posts, whoever it is. I'm for civil discourse from everybody. You have the right to post what you see as truth, undiluted. And you are quite good at making strong arguments for your positions.

Do you know Brother Fletcher? --Herb Evans

 

[Tom Butler]

Do you know Brother Fletcher? --Herb Evans

Could you be more specific--which Brother Fletcher?

 

[Herb Evans]

Could you be more specific--which Brother Fletcher?

Pastor Homer Fletcher of Peducah. -- Herb Evans

 

[Tom Butler]

I have met pastor Homer Fletcher, but do not know him well. He's been pastor of his church as long as I can remember.

 

[Herb Evans]

I have met pastor Homer Fletcher, but do not know him well. He's been pastor of his church as long as I can remember.

If you see him, tell him that Herb Evans said hello. He is my best friend IN KENTUCKY. Tell him that. -- Herb Evans

 

[Gershom]

Well, smell me! I am so sorry that I irritated YOUR HIGHNESS. -- Herb Evans

LOL! My Gram used to use that expression - "Well...., Smell of you..." Very funny. :laugh:

:godisgood:

 

[Herb Evans]

LOL! My Gram used to use that expression - "Well...., Smell of you..." Very funny. :laugh:

Yeah, it's an oldy but goody. This young wanna bees, who are trying to grow up to be somebody did not get it. They though i was saying something vulgar.-- herb Evans

 

[Logos1560]

In the context of a reference to "one body" (Eph. 2:16) Christ is said to have "broken down the middle wall of partition" between believing Jews and Gentiles and "hath made both one" (Eph. 2:14). Does this context of chapter 2 of Ephesians plainly demonstrate that the "one body" is only a local body (one local church)? Are believing Jews and Gentiles both reconciled and made both one in one local body if that one local church has only Gentile members? Is the "one body" of Ephesians 2:16 a different body than the "one body" of Ephesians 4:4 and "his body" of Ephesians 1:22-23?