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The Long Ending of Mark and The Woman Caught in Adultery According To The Byzantine Text

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JD731

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A follow up on my last post:

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them (two prophets who did not believe the resurrection and was leaving town), These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

These are OT writings. They are written by Jews to Jews. If God writes to gentiles it will be through a Jew. and it will be about them and not necessarily to them. The NT is different in that much of it is new and is written to gentiles with promises to us previously undisclosed. I bring this up to inform of two (2) different divine operative principles that must be noted in the early days of the Christian era, the apostolic era. God is dealing with his people with whom he has made immutable covenant promises concerning land and family and nation and kingdom and a King and the earth and a saviour. So, as one can see in Lk 24:44 above, Jesus coming is peculiarly to these people to whom the promises were made.

So, Acts 1-7 is dealing exclusively to the Jews and their promises. The people through their rulers refused to accept Jesus and his work as the fulfilment of those promises and, long story short, began receiving gentiles to complete his purposes for this age, which is preparing a bride for his son who would become his wife, the national Jewish covenant promises being set aside in this interim because of their unbelief. The transition from the divine principle of promise to the divine principle of grace to accomplish this purpose is a necessity because of a lack of any promises to those who would eventually fill the church, the gentiles, and whose character the body and bride of the church would become.

The Jewish covenant promises remain as sure to be fulfilled as if they had already been. They are everlasting covenants. One must see these transitions to understand the mind and thinking of God. God does not rule the affairs of men in sovereignty, but providentially to accomplish his will.

I doubt I could have ever seen these things without all the verses of Mark 16.

So
 

Van

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The majority of textual scholars are usually wrong.

I do not believe that is an accurate view of the issue. This version is even more misleading than the NET footnote. Compare the 2.

There were not different versions of Mark circulating ever. Post one if you have one.

Hogwash. If that were true were are they? There would be dozens or hundreds of manuscripts like that if that were true. 1650 verses 3 suggests your information is not true. The record is different verses your claim.

The record shows differently. 1650 verses 3.
If your "taint so" point is all you have, it is "hogwash."

You say the majority, if they disagree with you are wrong, but if they agree with you they are right. Not too deep.
 

Van

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You didn't source the previous quote, and now you don't source this one. That is unethical. If someone went to all the trouble to write and post something, they should at least get credit for it.

And if the source is anonymous, that is even worse. I don't allow my students to use anonymous sources in their research papers, and indeed just today corrected a paper that used an anonymous source, and I disallowed it. I understand someone not wanting to have their real identity on something like the Baptist Board (but personally, I am open here), but I'm not talking about that.

In regards to Eusebius, he was not a Bible scholar, but a church historian. (I've read his work.) So the quote of him means little to me.
No one needs to "source" an internet quote, as it can be pulled up with just a few clicks.

Your view of ethics favors your viewpoint. From my side of the street, you are the one using the fallacy of ad hominem argumentation to hide the facts.
 

John of Japan

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No one needs to "source" an internet quote, as it can be pulled up with just a few clicks.
Nope, sorry. I tried to find one of your quotes and could not. Any college prof who requires research papers will tell you the same: you simply must source your quotes. If this is required for college freshman, surely it should be done by an experienced denizen of the Internet like you. There is actually a book about how to do that which we require our college and seminary students to consult: Kate L. Turabian, A Manual for Writers of Research Papers, Theses, and Dissertations, 8th ed. We call this "Chicago style" sourcing, and it is vital for serious writers.

Your view of ethics favors your viewpoint. From my side of the street, you are the one using the fallacy of ad hominem argumentation to hide the facts.
It's not my view of ethics. See the book I mentioned above, which is very careful about how to source. It is the view of all serious writers of non-fiction, including college students. Surely you are at least as good a writer as any freshmen in our college! (I shudder when I see some of the papers of even a sophomore!) When a student does not source their quotes, we say that they are stealing the words by plagiarism.

And I didn't attack you as per ad hominem, I rebuked you as a Christian brother. Prov. 9:8, "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."

Are you wise? I've thought of you as being wise.... So, then, where are the quotes from?
 
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Van

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Nope, sorry. I tried to find one of your quotes and could not. Any college prof who requires research papers will tell you the same: you simply must source your quotes. If this is required for college freshman, surely it should be done by an experienced denizen of the Internet like you. There is actually a book about how to do that which we require our college and seminary students to consult: Kate L. Turabian, A Manual for Writers of Research Papers, Theses, and Dissertations, 8th ed. We call this "Chicago style" sourcing, and it is vital for serious writers.


It's not my view of ethics. See the book I mentioned above, which is very careful about how to source. It is the view of all serious writers of non-fiction, including college students. Surely you are at least as good a writer as any freshmen in our college! (I shudder when I see some of the papers of even a sophomore!) When a student does not source their quotes, we say that they are stealing the words by plagiarism.

And I didn't attack you as per ad hominem, I rebuked you as a Christian brother. Prov. 9:8, "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."

Are you wise? I've thought of you as being wise.... So, then, where are the quotes from?
Sorry, but your disability does not impose requirements on me.

You are the one claiming my ethics are flawed, and that is a fallacious argument.

Note JOJ has stopped trying to defend his bogus premise, and now is simply using against the person argumentation. Nuff said.
 

John of Japan

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I just graded a paper from Bible Doctrines 2, and I am so proud of this student! He has struggled with writing and with his classes in general. He came from a public school background, and those schools are generally very poor in teaching writing, even how to read and write, the basics! But his footnotes were perfect, and he had only one small formatting issue in his bibliography! He has come so far in learning to be a wise and careful student!

I don't ask for any Internet denizen to be even as careful in sourcing as a college freshman, but it seems to me that giving the source and author of a quote is a bare minimum! For our college students we as for a full footnote like Turabian teaches for a book: author, title, city of publisher, publishing company, year of copyright, and page number. Here's an example: Joe Sophomore, Catching Grasshoppers (Podunk, IN: Blowhard Publ., 2023), 233. In the bibliography, we just put the last name first, then lose the parentheses and the page number. Simple stuff!

But on the Internet, here on the BB, is it really an ad hominem attack, and asking too much, just to ask for the source of a quote? Really?!?!? :Frown
 

John of Japan

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Sorry, but your disability does not impose requirements on me.

You are the one claiming my ethics are flawed, and that is a fallacious argument.
So you can't even be as careful as a college freshman??
Note JOJ has stopped trying to defend his bogus premise, and now is simply using against the person argumentation. Nuff said.
I have fully put forth my premise, and feel no need to expand on it just for Van.
 

John of Japan

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I just looked at the BB rules: https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/general-posting-rules-from-may-19-2006.117032/page-2. I don't see anything about sourcing there, but there should be. It is simply plagiarism to quote someone without identifying who that writer is. There are laws against that, and one can be sued for plagiarism, lose their job, or just tarnish their name and the name of Christianity. It is not enough to say, "You can Google it." That's a copout.

By the way, Turabian 8th ed. requires that when quoting an Internet source, the writer must put when the website was accessed. This allows the prof or editor or anyone else to see if the article is still there, and if it is it can be consulted for the level of scholarship of the writer, the content, the context, etc. Here on the BB it is a little much to say when the article is accessed, since one can simply look at the date of the post. But surely it is the absolute bare minimum to give the source and author!! :Cool
 
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JesusFan

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Yes, it is well known that he did, and that the way he taught textual criticism is partly what drove Bart Ehrman to atheism. Metzger was Ehrman's prof and mentor at Princeton. They did the 4th ed. together of The Text of the New Testament.
Dr Metzger then would be totally wrong on the scriptures, just wondering if he had a deficit view regarding who Jesus was, the Cross, and His bodily resurrection then also?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I just looked at the BB rules: https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/general-posting-rules-from-may-19-2006.117032/page-2. I don't see anything about sourcing there, but there should be. It is simply plagiarism to quote someone without identifying who that writer is. There are laws against that, and one can be sued for plagiarism, lose their job, or just tarnish their name and the name of Christianity. It is not enough to say, "You can Google it." That's a copout.

By the way, Turabian 8th ed. requires that when quoting an Internet source, the writer must put when the website was accessed. This allows the prof or editor or anyone else to see if the article is still there, and if it is it can be consulted for the level of scholarship of the writer, the content, the context, etc. Here on the BB it is a little much to say when the article is accessed, since one can simply look at the date of the post. But surely it is the absolute bare minimum to give the source and author!! :Cool
I would kindly remind Brother van on this issue that it is very important to foot note and source correctly, as I am sure persons have been failed from graduating for failure to do such, or we know have even lost their teachings jobs
 

John of Japan

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Dr Metzger then would be totally wrong on the scriptures, just wondering if he had a deficit view regarding who Jesus was, the Cross, and His bodily resurrection then also?
By all accounts he was orthodox in these areas. (I can't find the quote from which I understood that Metzger did not believe in inerrancy.) Bart Ehrman talks about their relationship and his respect for Metzger: Do I Have a Grudge Against Dr. Bruce Metzger? | The Bart Ehrman Blog.

Caveat: on anything else, of course, flee Ehrman like the plague as an apostate atheist (or agnostic, whatever he calls himself at the time).
 
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JesusFan

Well-Known Member
By all accounts he was orthodox in these areas. (I can't find the quote from which I understood that Metzger did not believe in inerrancy.) Bart Ehrman talks about their relationship and his respect for Metzger: Do I Have a Grudge Against Dr. Bruce Metzger? | The Bart Ehrman Blog.

Caveat: on anything else, of course, flee Ehrman like the plague as an apostate atheist (or agnostic, whatever he calls himself at the time).
So Dr Metzger would have been a saved person who was totally wrong on his views regarding sacred scriptures, so how did he end up being head of textual criticism at DTS then? And have read that Ehrman came to loss of faith due to his mother or someone close to him never was healed by God
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
So Dr Metzger would have been a saved person who was totally wrong on his views regarding sacred scriptures, so how did he end up being head of textual criticism at DTS then? And have read that Ehrman came to loss of faith due to his mother or someone close to him never was healed by God
Ehrman is at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, not DTS.
 

Conan

Well-Known Member
So Dr Metzger would have been a saved person who was totally wrong on his views regarding sacred scriptures, so how did he end up being head of textual criticism at DTS then? And have read that Ehrman came to loss of faith due to his mother or someone close to him never was healed by God
And Metzger was from Princeton wasn't he? Wallace is at Dallas Theological Seminary.
 

rstrats

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This is veering a "bit" from the topic, and I hope I didn't miss it already being discussed in the posts.

A poster on another forum, the topic of which was questioning the authenticity of the last 12 verses in the book of Mark, wrote that it doesn't really matter because there is no doctrinal teaching in Mark 16:9-20 that cannot be proved elsewhere in agreed Scripture.

I made the mistake of sticking my nose into the discussion by pointing out that actually there is a statement in verse 9, as the KJV and similar versions have it, that is used for a doctrinal teaching that is to be found nowhere else in Scripture. As the KJV and similar versions translate it, it is the only place that puts the resurrection on the first day of the week. I then suggested that whenever the discussion of seventh day observance versus first day observance comes up, first day proponents frequently use the idea of a first day resurrection to justify the change, and when questioned about the day of resurrection, some quote Mark 16:9. The poster came back with: Quote a published author who has done that. - I have not yet been able to come up with one. Does anyone here know of one?
 
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