The Lord's Discourse

[lastday]

Lastday

RAdam,
You write:

As I've said before, the parallel passage to Matthew 24:15 is Luke 21:20.
The latter shows that Jesus was speaking of AD 70 and not some future
event at that point in the Olivet Discourse.

That is right on the button!
But so could Matt.24:15 speak of AD 2030 when the Abomination may "sit
in the Jerusalem Temple for 1260 (+ 3) days until Christ appears with all
the Saints!! The Jews whom God has rejected for "2 days" (2000 years)
will suddenly embrace Him out of jealousy at seeing Christians coming with
Him in the air AND with sorrow and mourning they plead for Mercy as God
chooses them a "second time" to be His emissaries to the nations!!!

Jesus, in Luke's account, predicts the Jews will suffer "days of vengeance"
until Gentile times are finished! He does not mention the Elect nor does He
deal with the events of the Great Tribulation except to say they are to be
the KAIROS Times that fulfill Dan.7:25 and Dan.12:4-11 prophecies!! But in
Matthew's account Jesus speaks of the Elect whom He will gather from the
earth during the Signs of the Day of Wrath and at the Sign of the Son of
Man!!!
Mel

 

[RAdam]

The people of the prince that shall come were the Roman armies under Titus who destroyed the city and sanctuary.

Messiah was cut off midway through the 70th week. After 62 weeks, not at the end of but after. When Messiah was cut off He caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. It's really simple if you allow to be and to speak for itself. Unfortunately, people like coming up with sensational and convoluted end times theories.

Again, I'm not a preterist.

 

[Truth Files]

"The people of the prince that shall come were the Roman armies under Titus who destroyed the city and sanctuary"

"The people of the prince that shall come were the Roman armies under Titus who destroyed the city and sanctuary."

Ezekiel 38;39; Micah 5; Zechariah 14; Revelation 17:8-18 alone refute your idea hands down

Show me by historical record that these visions fit the Roman invasions of 70 A.D.

You cannot do it

Neither can the pied pipers of preterism that have deceived you

 

[RAdam]

The whole prophecy of Daniel 9 is speaking of a specific time period, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple to Messiah's time. There is nothing that leads one to believe it has reference to the end times.

After 62 weeks Messiah was cut off and the city and sanctuary were destroyed by an invading army under the command of a prince. Messiah confirmed the covenant with many and caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. It all fits in that time period. Why does one need to insert a time gap?

 

[Truth Files]

"Why does one need to insert a time gap?"

No one inserts a gap by interpretation .... it is just simply there

You did not give a response to my question

Show me by historical record that the visions I listed have been fulfilled in the past

I would like your verse by verse account of each

If you care to do this you will find that historical preterism is flawed

 

[lastday]

Lastday

RAdam,
Your write:

The whole prophecy of Daniel 9 is speaking of a specific time period, from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple to Messiah's time.
There is nothing that leads one to believe it has reference to the end times.

After 62 weeks Messiah was cut off and the city and sanctuary were destroyed by an invading army under the command of a prince.
Messiah confirmed the covenant with many and caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. It all fits in that time period.
Why does one need to insert a time gap?

Jesus certainly applied the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy to that of the
great tribulation and to the resurrection of the Saints when He comes the
second time! Messiah was "cut off" five days after the 69th "7" was finished
as of His triumphal entry into Jerusalem to both fulfill Zech.9:9 and Dan.9:26A!! Daniel's prophecy means nothing unless Jesus died on Friday, Nisan 14,
just five days after the 69th Seven was fulfilled to the very DAY...on Palm Sunday, Nisan 9!!!

My friend, the TIME GAP was forced by the text of Dan.9:26B which was
fulfilled 37 years after Christ died...in AD 70! Hosea requires the gap to
last for 2000 years...until 2033 AD!! We have about 20 years to go before
Satan is cast from heaven and the Abomination sits in the Temple to fulfill the final 1260 (+3) days!!! Matt.24:15 and Rev.12:7-14 and Rev.11
Mel

 

[RAdam]

Verse 26 said after 62 weeks.

Let me provide an example. Let's say I was taking a college class for two more weeks. A few weeks later, a class on public speaking begins. I could tell you, "After two weeks, I will take a public speaking class." I didn't tell you exactly when the public speaking class will start, just that it will be after two weeks are expired. Same thing in Daniel 9:26.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."

That text does not tell you exactly when those things happen, just that they will transpire after the end of the 69th week (7 + 62). I look in history that Jesus was cut off after the 69th week. The Roman army under Titus destroyed the city and sanctuary after the 69th week. The latter is also tied to the former. The rejection and continued rejection of Jesus Christ brought God's judgement upon the Jews, resulting in the dissolution of the Jewish nation as it had been. I find that Jesus applied the abomination of desolation in verse 27 to events in AD 70 through Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20, which further solidifies this view. Finally, it all fits the time period, the history, the prophecy of God's judgement on that nation, the preaching of Jesus and the apostles to the Jewish people, etc. What does not fit is a time gap, from which there is no indication nor justification in Daniel 9.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

RAdam,
You write:

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself"...that text does not tell you exactly when those things happen,
just that they transpired after the end of the 69th week (7 + 62). Jesus was cut off after the 69th week.

The "last day" of 69 Prophetic sets of 7 from BC 444 to AD 33, that of 173,880 days (360x7x69), was Sunday, Nisan 30, Ad 33. Jesus died on Friday, Nisan 14...
16 days before the "last day" of 483 years (69x7). He died 16 days before the end of the 69th "7"!

The "last day" of the Solar countdown from BC 444 to AD 33, that of 173,859 days (365.25x7x68) was Sunday, Nisan 9, AD 33. Jesus fulfilled Zech.9:9 just 21
days before the Prophetic end of the 69th "7". Palm Sunday was the Day the Jews failed to recognize and which Jesus referred to as the "Day of His visitation"!!

Both the 68 Sets of Solar 7's and 69 sets of Prophetic 7's fulfilled Dan.9:26A all of 37 years before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. Since the gap between
AD 33 and AD 70 is only a part of the 2000 years that separates the 69th and 70th Seven, Jesus placed the Endtime of Daniel's 1290 days in the Eschatological
context of His coming at the "end of time"!!!
Mel

 

[quantumfaith]

"Why do you separate week number 70 from the previous 69 by thousands of years?"

I don't .... the scriptures do .... this breach in the narrative exists in all of the prophetic visions regarding the time of the end and can be directly identified .... all give the same rendering

Neither do I support the preteristic view and I don't think that the Bible does either

There are just two many flaws and also the practice of dumping volumes of scripture and relegating them as being figurative when they do not fit the preterist's position

If fact I consider the theology a totally different gospel and not related to the composite and completed message that Jesus Christ has given in the scriptures of His Word

So because of this there is really no common ground for you and I to discuss .... our views are simply just to divergent for carrying on an intelligent conversation

Preterism is much like the speak of the adherents of Islam, but presented in a different package in a number of ways

Oh, I see this so often on this board. the moment someone doesn't agree with "my theology", out are trotted the claims of "another gospel",
"apostate" and even occasionally "heretic. This should not be. "Agree" , "disagree", discuss, negotiate, analyze, quote, rationalize, "sharpen one another"

 

[Logos1]

Rime of the Ancient Preterist

Daniel
9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Israel] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: [the ending of the 69th]

and the people of the prince that shall come [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 11:36-45; 12:7; Micah 5:5-6] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

9:27 And he [Jesus Christ] shall confirm the covenant [execute the 6 objectives stated in 9:24] with many [the believing remnant part of Israel [Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-26]] for one week: [the 70th]

and in the midst of the week he [the prince that shall come] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [worship of the believing remnant at the Kotel], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate [the remnant will have to flee [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]] , even until the consummation [the end of the 70th], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate [the other prince and his followers].

Verses, verses everywhere, but not a gap to site!

Thanks ever so much Truth Files for giving us scriptural proof that there is not any mention of a gap anywhere in the Good Book.

If just inserting any old position (hmm, like say a gap into the 70 weeks) into the bible by assumption is valid we can all truly just make up our own theology. I might as well claim the bible says all Christians will win the lottery. I’d be just as legit as the Phantom gap in the 70 weeks.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

[Truth Files]

"Thanks ever so much Truth Files for giving us scriptural proof that there is not any mention of a gap anywhere in the Good Book"

You missed it didn't you?

The 6 objectives of the covenant that will be confirmed have never been fulfilled because of Israel's rejection of Jesus Christ .... all of them will be fulfilled for a believing remnant part of the nation during the future 70th week decreed for Daniel's people [the "many"] .... this time frame is still pending and has never been fulfilled

Do you believe that the following passages of scripture were fulfilled in the past? [Jeremiah 30; Zechariah 14:4-5]

And I would ask you to explain what you call the "gap" between Daniel 8:8 and 8:9 .... tell me who the "great horn" was ..... and who the "little horn" will be for starters

Then we can take a look at all of the verses that show this same breach in the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets

I know that you hold an historical preteristic view, but you may want to win the "lottery"

If you don't you will bite the wind and the door will be shut for you [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-22]

This is serious stuff son .... not a game

 

[lastday]

Truth Files:
What is your response to the following facts?

Jesus certainly applied the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy to that of the
great tribulation and to the resurrection of the Saints when He comes the
second time!

As the Messiah, He was "cut off" 5 days after the 69th (that is, the SOLAR aspect of the final) "7" was finished.
The SOLAR fulfillment was His Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem to fulfill Zech.9:9 and Dan.9:26A!!

Daniel's prophecy means nothing unless Jesus died on Friday, Nisan 14,
5 days after the 69th Seven was fulfilled on the SOLAR calendar to the very DAY...on Palm Sunday, Nisan 9.
But the 21 extra Prophetic days did not end until Nisan 30...21 days "AFTER" Jesus fulfilled the SOLAR days on Nisan 9!!!

The TIME GAP between Dan.9:26A and 9:26 was forced by the text of Dan.9:26B which was fulfilled 37 years after Christ died...in AD 70!

But Hosea requires the gap to last for 2000 years...until 2033 AD!!

We have about 20 years to go before Satan is cast from heaven and the Abomination sits in the Temple and is opposed by the Two Prophets
in order to fulfill the final 1260 (+3) days!!! Matt.24:15; Rev.12: 7-14 and Rev.11:1-11.

The "last day" of 69 Prophetic sets of 7 from BC 444 to AD 33, that of 173,880 days (360x7x69), was Sunday, Nisan 30, Ad 33.
Jesus died on Friday, Nisan 14...16 days before the "last day" of 483
Prophetic years (69x7x360).
He fulfilled the SOLAR countdown on Palm Sunday, Nisan 9...21 days before the end of the Prophetic 7.
He died 16 days before the end of the 69th PROPHETIC "7"!

The "last day" of the Solar countdown from BC 444 to AD 33, that of 173,859 days (365.25x7x68) was Sunday, Nisan 9, AD 33.
Jesus fulfilled Zech.9:9 just 21 days before the Prophetic end of the 69th "7". Palm Sunday was the Day the Jews failed to recognize as the End of the Solar countdown...
the Day Jesus wept and referred to as the "Day of His visitation"!! Luke 19:41-44.

Both the 68 Sets of Solar 7's and 69 sets of Prophetic 7's fulfilled Dan.9:26A all of 37 years before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. Since the gap between AD 33 and AD 70 is only a part of the 2000 years that separates the 69th and 70th Seven, Jesus placed the Endtime of Daniel's 1290 days in the Eschatological context of His coming at the "end of time"!!!
Mel Miller

 

[Truth Files]

Mel,

Your are correct about the Lord's continuation of Daniel's visions related to the future 70th week decreed for Israel

This is the focus of His discourse for a future returned remnant of the nation during the 70th week

But, I cannot agree with your speculations and date setting based upon the non-inclusive calculations that you offer which are not a part of the scope of the visions themselves

The Lord has not revealed the dating of His coming intervention and has made this very clear

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Truth,
Your Remark:

The Lord has not revealed the dating of His coming intervention and has made this very clear.

You need to explain what Jesus meant about knowing WHEN the "End is Near"!
Matt.24:33.
You can't apply this to us now as we don't know WHEN/IF the "End as Near"!!

Please don't resort to quoting Matt.24:36. That verse applies to a Day/Hour which I have agreed cannot possibly be known even during the 3 days that follow
the completion of the final 1260 days. You are confusing our readers by the warning of Matt.24:36 instead of quoting Matt.24:33 which indicates the time is coming WHEN
we will know for certain that the Endtime countdown of 1260 days has begun. That fact is different than claiming to know the DAY/HOUR which you keep throwing at me
to discredit my view. You censure my view based on a verse of which not even the Two Prophets can have knowledge. Besides we know of some Prophetic events that may even precede knowing WHEN the "End is Near"!!!

NOW it's your turn to show why Mark Biltz cannot know the "WHEN"!
And explain WHEN Believers will know for certain that the End is Near!!
Even you must admit there is a point in time when we know it's NEAR!!!

You're aware of Mark Biltz's claim that 2014 or 2015 IS THE END.
Please cease confusing the DAY/HOUR with knowing the "End is Near".
I appreciate your tolerant respect for others also believing the Truth.
Mel

 

[Winman]

Lastday

I generally agree with you on most things, except that I believe Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday. The Jews had a sabbath on the 49th day, which was seven weeks from the previous month. This would occur on the 19th day of the month. Jesus entered Jerusalem on the 14th day of the first month, a Saturday. He was crucified on the 18th day which would have been the day before the sabbath on the 19th. This would be Wednesday. This is where much confusion arises, there were two sabbaths that week, the first on Thursday the 19th day of the month, and the traditional sabbath on the 21st, a Saturday.

He was buried around sunset. Sunset would be the beginning of Thursday the 19th. He spent the 19th, 20th, and 21st in the grave. Sometime after sunset which would be the 22nd (Sunday) he arose.

This is the only way you can have three days and three nights without contradiction.

 

[Truth Files]

"You're aware of Mark Biltz's claim that 2014 or 2015 IS THE END."

The end of what Mel?

Mark Blitz is a false prophet Mel .... and the list of these pied pipers is a long one

Most of them have hidden agendas as well and I would suggest that you look for the same along with his false prophecies .... if you can't find his I will help you [I know]

No one knows the dating of the Lord's sudden intervention and this includes Biltz

If he were a genuine teacher of the Lord's Word he would not be making false predictions .... this behavior is a form of divination

[Acts 1:6-7; 1Thessalonians 5:1-2; Matthew 25:13]

It is true that Israel has returned in part to the land of Israel today and the nation is surrounded by its ancient enemies .... so this setting is obviously a prelude to the coming 70th week decreed

I am convinced that there is nothing standing in the way of the Lord's sudden executions of His actions as the scriptures tell .... could begin before this day is over

But attempting to date the timing is not a good idea

This has been done by many and when the dates come and go this behavior makes a mockery of the Bible, its claims, and Jesus Christ

There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars related to events upon the earth, but all of this will be part of the 70th week and not before .... the beginning of this time frame will come suddenly and with no warning .... and it will begin like this:

Revelation
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

And it will end like this 2550 days later:

Matthew
24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be [His visible appearing].

24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet [Isaiah 11:11-12;27:13], and they shall gather together his elect [the surviving believing mortal remnant part of Israel] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations [the surviving mortal gentiles of the nations]: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Winman,

Hi, I know about the Wednesday crucifixion argument, but...

Sir Isaac Newton claimed that Jesus died on Friday...400 years ago. The great Hebrew
scholar, Alfred Edersheim claimed He died on Friday...much more recently than Newton.
A majority of Christians believe Christ fulfilled Zech.9:9 on Palm Sunday. That day, Nisan
9, was five days before Friday, Nisan 14. Nisan 14 is the date required by Leviticus 23:5.

In the countdown of Daniel's PROPHETIC timeline of 69 Sevens (Sets of 360x7x69 or 173,880 days), Nisan 14 fell on a Friday just ONCE every seven years. It fell on Friday ONLY 69 times between BC 444 and AD 33. Therefore, Christ had to die on a Friday in AD 33, Nisan 14, at the time of the Full Moon to fulfill the PROPHETIC countdown five
days AFTER He fulfilled Dan.9:26A and Zech.9:9..."blessed as Messiah the Prince" on Palm Sunday which was still 21 days short of the last day of the 173,880 Prophetic days.

On the other hand, the last day of the 68 sets of the SOLAR countdown ended on Palm Sunday. [444-1=443+33=476%7=68x365.25x7 or 173,859 days]. Jesus fulfilled Zech.9:9 and Dan.9:26A on Palm Sunday (but not Dan.9:26B since it was fulfilled in AD 70).

The astonishing fact about the SOLAR countdown of 173,859 days (computed as 68 sets of solar 7's) is that Palm Suinday fell on Nisan 9 SIXTY NINE times also between BC 444 and AD 33 to fulfill all but the remaining 21 days of the PROPHETIC countdown of 360-Day Years. The Solar countdown ended on Nisan 9; Prophetic ended on Nisan 30.

Finally, Computer Programs used by NASA and the US Naval Observatory, as of 2008,
have proved that Friday, April 3, AD 33, was the Date of Christ's death because a
total eclipse of a ("blood-red") moon appeared on the horizon at 3 PM as Jesus died.

Mark Biltz has calculated that Christ is coming in the fall of 2014/2015 based on the
fact that each of these years has a total Lunar Eclipse occurring at the Feast of Tabs.

But neither of these two dates allows 2000 years since AD 33. There will be a Total
Lunar Eclipse for 3.5 hours at 5 AM in American and westward from the East Coast
on Oct.8/2033 which is the first day of the Feast of Tabs in 2033. No one can know
if Jesus will APPEAR on Tishri 15 or 16 of the Hebrew Calendar...but He could gather the Elect on the 15th before He appears at the Twilight Hour which begins Sunday as of 5:58 PM. It would also begin the 7th Millennium on a "Special Sabbath".
Mel

 

[Winman]

Finally, Computer Programs used by NASA and the US Naval Observatory, as of 2008,
have proved that Friday, April 3, AD 33, was the Date of Christ's death because a
total eclipse of a ("blood-red") moon appeared on the horizon at 3 PM as Jesus died.

There may have been a lunar eclipse that day, but it could not have appeared with the moon on the horizon and the sun approximately at a 45 degree angle toward the west. To observe a lunar eclipse, the earth must be between the sun and moon as to the observer. I am no expert, but astronomy has been a hobby of mine all my life. You cannot observe a lunar eclipse with the moon and sun both visible at the same time.

 

[lastday]

Winman,
You wrote:

Astronomy has been a hobby of mine all my life. You cannot observe
a lunar eclipse with the moon and sun both visible at the same time.

That is correct. But the sun will not be visible because it will be darkened...
not as by an eclipse; but by a supernatural act of God. The Computer models
show the Moon Eclipsed before it was seen arising over the horizon at 3 PM.
Mel

 

[Winman]

Winman,
You wrote:


That is correct. But the sun will not be visible because it will be darkened...
not as by an eclipse; but by a supernatural act of God. The Computer models
show the Moon Eclipsed before it was seen arising over the horizon at 3 PM.
Mel

If the sun was darkened, then yes the moon could be visible and would turn red.

But there is no way NASA could predict a supernatural act like this, in fact, if you know anything about NASA, they would deny any supernatural act if they could predict or show it, which they cannot.