rsr, I have started a topic in the Baptist History forum called History of Feetwashing.
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The Lords Table +1Cor 11:27-34
- Thread starter Scott_Bushey
- Start date
Thanks Brother Robert you beat me to it! I know we will have a lot of my brethren who are on the board coming by to give their opinion!... Brother Glen
I also started a topic on the Baptist Theology & Bible Study called The Theology Of Feetwashing ... Brother Glen
[ March 28, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
[ March 28, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
Hi Scott Bushey
Sorry for the delay in responding to you.
Brother Scott, I must thank you for this topic and for the challenges of further study. I have actually been re-visiting some of my personal notes and thoughts on this passage and now seem to have more questions than answers. So my reply to you will be short for now. I just want to touch on a couple of things.
Concerning our confession of sins, the Bible teaches that we are forgiven for all our sins, past - present - future. If you would, read my opening statement on the link I gave in my post about first John. I do not believe there is a command to verbally confess after we are converted. Conversion puts us in right standing with God, once for all. Sin is not a question anymore. He has judged that at the cross, making us complete in Him. Hebrews is an excellent commentary on that standing. So for us to come to the lords supper bowing our heads closing our eyes trying to concentrate on our present sins, asking God to forgive us for them when He already has is,to me, ludicrous. First John contrast lost/saved and verse nine is a one time event. Further, Paul writes to the Corinthians about the proper manner in which to approach the Lord’s Supper, and one key aspect of this is the pointing out of Jesus very words remember me{Jesus}. This is not remember us. I find that some people feel this overwhelming since worry, that they will go home sick if they eat this without first checking off every sin and asking verbal confession. That is not what this is about. The Corinthians unworthy manner was expressed when they wanted to make themselves look more spiritual by getting so stuffed, and so drunk that the judgment they pronounced on themselves getting sick or even death. And they were causing divisions by doing this. God certainly disciplines us! Yet this is different than punishing us. Our sin punishment has been paid forever. And we must also remember that we reap what we sow. This could veer into an entire different thread. But I believe that most of God discipline comes from the Word of God itself. 1 Timothy 3:16, says the word corrects us, and gives us instruction. Jesus said that His word is truth and it sanctifies us.
I would be interested to know if rlvaughn could recommend any books on this subject. Because now, I have some questions
.
God bless...
[ March 29, 2002, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Chet ]
Sorry for the delay in responding to you.
Brother Scott, I must thank you for this topic and for the challenges of further study. I have actually been re-visiting some of my personal notes and thoughts on this passage and now seem to have more questions than answers. So my reply to you will be short for now. I just want to touch on a couple of things.
Concerning our confession of sins, the Bible teaches that we are forgiven for all our sins, past - present - future. If you would, read my opening statement on the link I gave in my post about first John. I do not believe there is a command to verbally confess after we are converted. Conversion puts us in right standing with God, once for all. Sin is not a question anymore. He has judged that at the cross, making us complete in Him. Hebrews is an excellent commentary on that standing. So for us to come to the lords supper bowing our heads closing our eyes trying to concentrate on our present sins, asking God to forgive us for them when He already has is,to me, ludicrous. First John contrast lost/saved and verse nine is a one time event. Further, Paul writes to the Corinthians about the proper manner in which to approach the Lord’s Supper, and one key aspect of this is the pointing out of Jesus very words remember me{Jesus}. This is not remember us. I find that some people feel this overwhelming since worry, that they will go home sick if they eat this without first checking off every sin and asking verbal confession. That is not what this is about. The Corinthians unworthy manner was expressed when they wanted to make themselves look more spiritual by getting so stuffed, and so drunk that the judgment they pronounced on themselves getting sick or even death. And they were causing divisions by doing this. God certainly disciplines us! Yet this is different than punishing us. Our sin punishment has been paid forever. And we must also remember that we reap what we sow. This could veer into an entire different thread. But I believe that most of God discipline comes from the Word of God itself. 1 Timothy 3:16, says the word corrects us, and gives us instruction. Jesus said that His word is truth and it sanctifies us.
I would be interested to know if rlvaughn could recommend any books on this subject. Because now, I have some questions
God bless...
[ March 29, 2002, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Chet ]
Doc Yankum
New Member
Bro Glen
I thought I had answered the challenge you issued to preachtheword. If not what else do you need to know?
I thought I had answered the challenge you issued to preachtheword. If not what else do you need to know?
Chet, off of the top of my head - there is a book called What is it to Eat and Drink Unworthily? by J. R. Graves, and still available, I think, from Bogard Press, Texarkana, TX/AR. When I get home Sunday night, I'll try to remember to look through my books on communion. Go to www.abaptist.org and you should find info on how to contact the Texarkana bookstore.Originally posted by Chet:
I would be interested to know if rlvaughn could recommend any books on this subject. Because now, I have some questions.
Scott_Bushey
<img src=/scott.jpg>
Chet,
Forgive me, but I do not believe you addressed my questions or it may be possible that I misunderstood you. May I please repost them?
Rlvaughn's premise has been that *none* are truly worthy to partake. You pose that *all* of the believers sins have been forgiven at the cross. I agree with what you both present, however, Here is what I see from the harmony of scripture.......
When contrasted w/ the righteousness of Christ, no one is ever going to be literally worthy of partaking; I agree! However, I do not believe, in this case, that the scriptures rightly intend to convey this idea in regards to this topic.
1 Cor 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
This scripture presents the idea that there is *someone* who can partake unworthily, "whosoever". The scripture (as I have stated before) is properly applied to the believer. Verse 32 provides this proof. The question to then address is, how might one be unworthy? What would make a believer unworthy? We all know that through the righteousness of Christ we are now righteous, through His righteousness. But the implication here reveals that one can become unworthy, not unrighteous.
Chet what do you think this verse in James implies?
James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
How is this sickness contrasted against the exhortation in 1 Cor? This sickness is a spiritual sickness, not a physical one. The root of this sickness is present, obvious sin.
1 Cor 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1 Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
Do consider that God surely *chastens* His children. What warrants chastening? God chastens us for rebellion (sin).
1 Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
This verse surely reveals that God is judging sin in the life of a believer. " chastened....that we should not be condemned with the world."
If all our sins are forgiven us and 1 John 1:9 is not an active application for the NT saint, why is the Hebrews 12 scripture there?
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Verse 1 implies that "sin" can be seen and felt as a *weight* in the life of a believer. There is an obvious affect from sin in our life....even knowing that our sins are not being held to our account anymore, there is an active cause and effect present.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
We are exhorted to resist sin, even unto blood!
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
The above harmonizes w/ the scripture from James.
Perseverance of the saint is a beautiful fact in the lives of believers. However, harmony also reveals many exhortations warnings against apostasy also.
In conclussion, 1 John 1:9 is an active command. We are commanded to confess our sins to God. Sin still has an present day effect on the believer. The Lords supper is to be viewed amidst this warning. Response via confession and repentance is mandatory.
In HIM,
Scott Bushey
[ March 30, 2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
Forgive me, but I do not believe you addressed my questions or it may be possible that I misunderstood you. May I please repost them?
Rlvaughn's premise has been that *none* are truly worthy to partake. You pose that *all* of the believers sins have been forgiven at the cross. I agree with what you both present, however, Here is what I see from the harmony of scripture.......
When contrasted w/ the righteousness of Christ, no one is ever going to be literally worthy of partaking; I agree! However, I do not believe, in this case, that the scriptures rightly intend to convey this idea in regards to this topic.
1 Cor 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
This scripture presents the idea that there is *someone* who can partake unworthily, "whosoever". The scripture (as I have stated before) is properly applied to the believer. Verse 32 provides this proof. The question to then address is, how might one be unworthy? What would make a believer unworthy? We all know that through the righteousness of Christ we are now righteous, through His righteousness. But the implication here reveals that one can become unworthy, not unrighteous.
Chet what do you think this verse in James implies?
James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
How is this sickness contrasted against the exhortation in 1 Cor? This sickness is a spiritual sickness, not a physical one. The root of this sickness is present, obvious sin.
1 Cor 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1 Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
Do consider that God surely *chastens* His children. What warrants chastening? God chastens us for rebellion (sin).
1 Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
This verse surely reveals that God is judging sin in the life of a believer. " chastened....that we should not be condemned with the world."
If all our sins are forgiven us and 1 John 1:9 is not an active application for the NT saint, why is the Hebrews 12 scripture there?
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Verse 1 implies that "sin" can be seen and felt as a *weight* in the life of a believer. There is an obvious affect from sin in our life....even knowing that our sins are not being held to our account anymore, there is an active cause and effect present.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
We are exhorted to resist sin, even unto blood!
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
The above harmonizes w/ the scripture from James.
Perseverance of the saint is a beautiful fact in the lives of believers. However, harmony also reveals many exhortations warnings against apostasy also.
In conclussion, 1 John 1:9 is an active command. We are commanded to confess our sins to God. Sin still has an present day effect on the believer. The Lords supper is to be viewed amidst this warning. Response via confession and repentance is mandatory.
In HIM,
Scott Bushey
[ March 30, 2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]