Psalty
Active Member
So still no answer?
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The Man on the Middle Cross
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
Psalty
Active Member
So how can you honestly address those who fall away? They would, in the time of their belief, be quoting this about themselves as well?
I will answer this from the other side, but let’s resolve the calvinist issue first.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Martin I listened to the video and what I heard would actually prompts some comments that you should be able to answer
3:16 out and I'm doing wonderfully well no because the sinless Savior died my
3:23 sinful soul is counted free for God that just is satisfied to look on him and
3:31 pardon me
I did not hear anything in his comments about one having faith in the Risen Christ but the bible is clear that is a requirement for salvation.
If we took his words as the only requirement for salvation, "because the sinless Savior died" then everyone would be saved. As he said "my sinful soul is counted free for God that just is satisfied to look on him and pardon me"
Who did Christ died for according to scripture?
We can find the answer in 1 John
1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
So unless you are a universalist, which I doubt you are, then you must agree there is a condition for one's salvation. Faith in the risen son of God.
Act 16:30 ...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 ...“Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, ...”
The calvinist view does not meet the biblical standard or requirement for one's salvation.
You asked how we who are relying on our faith can know we will endure. Well the only answer I would give is that we will continue to trust in Christ Jesus in the strength of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Does that mean we could not fall away, no. Because we have a God given free will we can reject Him and thus be lost. That is what it means to have a free will Martin.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Have you not noticed that KY is good and making wild accusations but does not defend the position he holds.
Psalty
Active Member
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
— Colossians 1:21-23
Psalty
Active Member
I get the conundrum! It’s at a point where he’d have to admit that it could in fact be God’s will for him to fall away… and there is no appeal from scripture for security against that because the bible talks exactly about people who have believed and fallen away (imho… seeds and soils, especially the thorns). They would have quoted his or Martin’s same verse…
We’ll see if there is any resolution, but the recoil against admitting that it is the logical conclusion is too difficult… like many conclusions of calvinisms theology.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Allistair Begg is a Calvinist, and one who I think does Calvinism right. The link I put up which if it doesn't work is sermon 1480 on his truthforlife site discusses the fact that indeed, a spirit led person should carefully examine themselves to see whether they are in the faith. And, he points out as Martin warns in an above post, that the verdict your heart gives you when you do this is likely to be negative and can be damaging. In that sermon though, if you go right to the 14 minute mark you find him explaining that this very examination of yourself is itself, a primary indication of true salvation, and though it can be uncomfortable it is also a mark of a true Christian and should in itself give assurance. That is why I am concerned when I see some act as if any doubt of your spiritual state is something to be avoided. Agree or disagree as you wish, but that is the opinion on this by the person who preached the opening sermon on "The Man on the Middle Cross".
What drew me to Puritan writers, and then to Calvinism, was the fact that they believed in doing business with God concerning your soul. This is different in my opinion than easy believe Baptists who rely upon the fact that they said a prayer at one time, and also Calvinists who rely on a belief that they must be elect and thus everything is OK.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Salvation: Can We Know for Sure? - Truth For Life
Is it possible to move beyond speculation to a deep assurance of our salvation? Alistair Begg examines the truths found in John’s first epistle, explaining that biblical confidence for our salvation is rooted in Scripture and the steadfast love of God. While believers may still battle...
Psalty
Active Member
I know people probably think I hate Calvinists. I promise that I dont!
I love the fact that Calvinists love scripture. I love that they are conservative. I love that they typically want to see fruit and live godly lives. There are many godly calvinists doing much for the Kingdom of God.
But I have a mind that is very logic minded. I want scripture to match the character of God… because it should. I love scripture. I listen to multiple audio bible books every day… I cannot get enough of scripture! But when you start listening to a Gospel, Law, or multiple Letters a day, you have to start putting concepts together, and they have to make sense. And God’s nature must make sense with it. And Humanity. The narrative and comprehensiveness of the Christian world-view must be cohesive. I know that calvinists think that they have the upper hand on understanding scripture, but I am convinced with my relentless listening that it does not hold.
This is why I harp on points such as this one… because Calvinists will tell you that you can be secure, but when you look at how they use scripture, and when you follow their theology, you can only conclude (in this case regarding security) that you can’t actually know. Personally I prefer calvinists that are honest about this, and there are several of them. There are too many children raised on things like this, and because calvinist parents and teachers aren’t honest, when the logic and extension of the theology (that their pastor with-held from them) leads to a collapse of faith because of it.
ps- I will watch your link; I’ve always liked Alistar… plus his accent is nice. I’m sure i’d love listening to Martin as well!
I answered you stupid question with scripture.
The Man on the Middle Cross
I thought that just about everyone had seen ths little video clip, but I was just browsing through the 'Determinism' thread and @Silverhair and @Psalty were continually asking @Brightfame52 how he knows he's saved. Here's the answer:
www.baptistboard.com
I just believe the words of Scripture. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' Just believe the words, Psalty. That's all we need to do. The whataboutery is irrelevant. The Shepherd will keep His sheep. Who are Christ's sheep? 'My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.'
There are other texts that say the same thing. 'For when we were still without strength, Christ died for the ungodly.' That was me! I was an ungodly sinner, and Christ died for people just like me. These are the precious promises of God, and I believe them. Therefore I have absolute assurance that He has saved me. I don't have faith in my faith; God forbid! In my own strength, I am more than likely to fall away. But Christ has shed His blood for Me, and He has promised that those who come to Him He will by no means cast out.
Those who fall away (and there have been some at my church) I urge with all my heart to remain, and I pray for them. But if they leave for good, then 1 John 2:19 applies. Usually, those who fall away either come with wrong ideas about Christ, or have been seduced by specious promises from a false teacher. Obviously the church leaders' job is to teach them the truth as well as they can, but the Scripture says, 'He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not believe because you are not of God' (John 8:47).
No problem.
Listen again to Alistair Begg. If you put your salvation down to anything that you have done, then you've got it all wrong. The quote is from a hymn by Charitie Lees Bancroft, and I want it sung at my funeral. Here it is in full.
'Before the throne of God above
I have a strong, a perfect plea,
A great High Priest whose Name is Love,
Who ever lives and pleads for me.
My name is graven in His hands,
My name is written on His heart;
I know that, while in heaven He stands,
No tongue can bid me thence depart.
When Satan tempts me to despair,
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upwards I look and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Saviour died,
My guilty soul is counted free;
For God the just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.
Behold Him there! The risen Lamb!
My perfect, spotless righteousness;
The great unchangeable I AM,
The King of glory and of grace.
One with Himself, I cannot die;
My soul is purchased by His blood;
My life is hid with Christ on high,
With Christ, my Saviour and My God.'
His sheep ; sinners; the ungodly, many, 'us,' enemies (Rom. 5:10). I'm sure I could find some more if I thought about it.
You are a universalist if you believe that Christ atoned for the sins of every single person who ever lived.
What does it mean to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Does it mean that you believe that there was such a person as Jesus of Nazareth who lived a long time ago and did some good stuff?
I feel very sorry for you. You appear to believe in a god who does not love anyone enough to save him.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
As I have said many times Martin but you still seem to miss it or just ignore it , not sure which. I am saved by God due to my faith in Christ Jesus which is just what we find in scripture.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
If one does not believe then they will not be saved, which is also something we find in scripture
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned
So you do not actually believe the word of God, that is quite the revelation from a preacher.
1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
1Ti 4:10 To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, and especially of those who believe.
Martin do you not understand what Paul was saying to the jailer?
I can understand that a calvinist may have trouble understanding what Paul meant as they do not understand man's free will.
Martin are you describing the version of Christ that you believe in?
I believe in the God of the bible that says He will save those that believe in Him but will not force anyone to come to Him that does not believe Him.
In other words I do not believe in the god of calvinism. That god is but a mockery of the real God of scripture.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
As Begg says in his sermon, you should examine yourself - and you will probably not like what you find. And then you must realize that your evaluation of yourself was not only proper, but your conclusion re yourself is the result of the Holy Spirit's enlightenment. And you learn to rest in Christ - while still unworthy. Honestly, there is no substitute for getting into a good church and under a good pastor preaching with wisdom. You work through this your whole life. Part of it honestly is due to your own makeup. Some people are more prone to self introspection and depression than others. I have seen some cases of depression from too much reading of some of the hard Puritans. For those of us raised in a church that leaned toward easy believism a good dose of Edward's "On the Religious Affections" or Owen's "On the Mortification of Sin" or even Paul Washers "Shocking Youth Message" may be just what we need. But it has to be applied carefully and with wisdom so you don't end up like poor William Cowper, who I guess, determined that he was reprobate and thus lost.
Psalty
Active Member
The problem is the application though.
Would you acknowledge that those that fell away once used to quote the same scriptures about sheep and hands and eternal security and at one point many of them were just as sure as you are now?
The point is, as a calvinist, anyone could be destined to fall away, and many of the people that do were just as sure and quoted the same verses as you do now. There is no security in those verses on calvinism… because you simply dont know.
So it is simply not honest as a calvinist to tell someone they can never fall away and can be confident of their election, because God may have other plans of them falling away… you wont know until later.
Bingo! Salvation goes no further than those whose sins have been atoned for, paid in full. Its not the cross PLUS faith that saves. Faith is not an addendum to the cross. As Dr. Greg Bahnsen once said, "If justification is grounded in our faith, then it is grounded in something about us."
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
This speaks of limited atonement, God Loves everyone who is believing, rather jew or gentile, Jesus loved and gave His Life for them,
If a person never believes its because they were not one of His Sheep He loved and died for Jn 10:26 and consequently they stand condemned by the Law, so final unbelief is the evidence Christ didn't fulfill the Law on their behalf, so they must remain condemned by the Law Christ didn't die for sins and unbelief.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The cross made salvation possible for all. Our faith makes it actual for the individual.
1Jn 2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
but it is only those that have trusted in the risen Christ that will be justified/saved.
Rom 4:5 However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God
Our justification is grounded in Christ Jesus but we are justified because we believe.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
In the NT we find six aspects of Justification
We are justified by grace (Tit_3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9) — that means we do not deserve it.
We are justified by faith (Rom_5:1-2, Gal 2:16) — that means that we have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to receive it.
We are justified by blood (Rom_5:9-10, Rom_3:25) — that refers to the price the Savior paid in order that we might be justified.
We are justified by power (Rom_4:24-25) — the same power that raised the Lord Jesus from the dead.
We are justified by God (Gal_3:8-9, Rom 3:30) — He is the One who reckons us righteous.
We are justified by our works (Jas_2:18, Jas_2:24, Jas 2:26) — not meaning that good works earn justification, but that they are the evidence that we have been justified.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
BF as is usual for you you have missed the obvious.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world
BF you are reading into the word of God what you need to find to support your false philosophy.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
Your false view makes God seem worse than Satan. Satan tries to draw people to himself so they are condemned. Your version of god could save all but chooses to condemn most just because He can.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You cant see the truth. The world of Jn 3:17 is saved through Him, the world of the elect. Your false doctrine would read Jn 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might potentially be saved.