The Mark is coming

[Cathode]

Wherever the Bible is taught truly, there you will find the true Church. The unity of the churches is not organizational but spiritual. Disagreements on secondary matters do not affect that unity (Romans 14:1-23). I have attended many Christian conferences where I have been blessed by Christian brothers of many different churches and denominations. It is when churches move away from the Bible, as the Church of Rome has done, that problems begin.

There were no denominations in the bible.

 

[AustinC]

2 Peter 3:16, “as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”

The Apostles were Infallible in their teaching and writings.

All Catholics did is preserve those writings and the same interpretation of them, in Apostolic Tradition.

Apostolic Tradition is the Apostles interpretation of Scripture handed down.

Outside the ancient Apostles understanding of scripture is error, and in many cases spiritually fatal error.

Read all the Church Fathers, they were pathological about maintaining the same Apostolic understanding of Scripture and rejected any new interpretations of scripture.

Protestantism didn’t just reject the ancient Apostles interpretation of scripture they quickly rejected each other’s interpretations of scripture.

Through circumstance, history and heresy, Protestants today have been robbed of the Apostles interpretation of scripture.
Apostolic Tradition seems foreign, strange and pagan even, because private interpreters have poisoned them against the Fathers, and stolen their inheritance.

But for all the divine words, there is no need of allegory to grasp the meaning; what is necessary is study and understanding to know the meaning of each statement. We must have recourse to tradition, for all cannot be received from the divine Scriptures. That is why the holy Apostles handed down certain things in writings but others by traditions. As Paul said:” Just as I handed them on to you.”‘ Ephiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 61, 6 (A.D. 377).

“In answer to the objection that the doxology in the form ‘with the Spirit’ has no written authority, we maintain that if there is not other instance of that which is unwritten, then this must not be received. But if the great number of our mysteries are admitted into our constitution without written authority, then, in company with many others, let us receive this one. For I hold it apostolic to abide by the unwritten traditions. ‘I praise you,’ it is said, ‘that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as I have delivered them to you;’ and ‘Hold fast the traditions which ye have been taught whether by word, or our Epistle.’ One of these traditions is the practice which is now before us, which they who ordained from the beginning, rooted firmly in the churches, delivering it to their successors, and its use through long custom advances pace by pace with time.” Basil, Holy Spirit 71 (c. A.D. 370).

The writers of God's word wrote down an infallible word. The Apostles, themselves, were hardly infallible. Peter was not only rebuked by Jesus, but also by Paul. Paul was rebuked by Barnabas (Paul shows us that he later understood he was wrong by asking John Mark to bring him his coat). We humans are fallible. This means that every Bishop in every church is fallible. He may be wrong in his interpretation of scripture. The Councils, though better than one man, may be a group decision of wrong interpretation as demonstrated by the Council of Trent, which was an RCC sham council.

Cathode, ask yourself why your church is functioning like the Jehovah's Witness and Mormons in using fear as a means of controlling it's members. I read what you write and I hear the fear in your sentences. Ask yourself this question. Does the Spirit of God give us a spirit of fear or of courage?

Cathode, test the interpretation of the RCC against scripture. I can tell you there is much good interpretation in the RCC (Trinity for example), but because the leadership is not infallible, there is also bad interpretation in the RCC (justification by faith plus works. Indulgences. Purgatory. Etc.).

 

[AustinC]

There were no denominations in the bible.

So, no Pharisees and no Sadducees...

 

[Cathode]

The writers of God's word wrote down an infallible word. The Apostles, themselves, were hardly infallible. Peter was not only rebuked by Jesus, but also by Paul. Paul was rebuked by Barnabas (Paul shows us that he later understood he was wrong by asking John Mark to bring him his coat). We humans are fallible. This means that every Bishop in every church is fallible. He may be wrong in his interpretation of scripture. The Councils, though better than one man, may be a group decision of wrong interpretation as demonstrated by the Council of Trent, which was an RCC sham council.

What the Apostles taught and preached by The Spirit was Infallible. Their behaviour wasn’t perfect but what they preached was complete truth.

Cathode, ask yourself why your church is functioning like the Jehovah's Witness and Mormons in using fear as a means of controlling it's members. I read what you write and I hear the fear in your sentences. Ask yourself this question. Does the Spirit of God give us a spirit of fear or of courage?

Fear can be a good thing, when stops people from doing something really stupid.

I’m telling you there’s a big croc in the water, and you are blind to it. You think it’s normal to privately interpret scripture, Peter warns people in scripture, ignore. All the Fathers said the same thing, ignore.

Why is it you warn dudes and they don’t even pause for thought, not even a hair of introspection on the subject.

Years ago I warned my boss about some dangerous scaffold at the wharf, before I could blink he walked out on it and started bouncing. He said ‘ It’s alright, it’s alright ‘ he didn’t say it’s alright a third time. The whole thing gave way and he fell 3 flights surrounded in falling pipes and bars, dashed himself against a barnacle encrusted pylon and into the sea.
I guess it was alright then.

Cathode, test the interpretation of the RCC against scripture. I can tell you there is much good interpretation in the RCC (Trinity for example), but because the leadership is not infallible, there is also bad interpretation in the RCC (justification by faith plus works. Indulgences. Purgatory. Etc.).

What you are asking me to do is test my interpretation of scripture against the Apostolic interpretation of scripture.
I have all the authority of a gardening contractor, how does that compare with the combined weight of all the Fathers and Bishops of the Church. Just folly.

Jesus didn’t found His Church on the bible, the bible didn’t exist then, He founded it on Peter and the Apostles.
Protestants founded their churches on their discordant interpretations of scripture, trying to reinvent Christian religion from text, text they have no hope to agree on. Text they had nothing to do with.

Why should I add to the chaos with yet another tradition of men from my own interpretations of scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There were no denominations in the bible.

True, but ihat also includes the denomination called the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[AustinC]

What the Apostles taught and preached by The Spirit was Infallible. Their behaviour wasn’t perfect but what they preached was complete truth.



Fear can be a good thing, when stops people from doing something really stupid.

I’m telling you there’s a big croc in the water, and you are blind to it. You think it’s normal to privately interpret scripture, Peter warns people in scripture, ignore. All the Fathers said the same thing, ignore.

Why is it you warn dudes and they don’t even pause for thought, not even a hair of introspection on the subject.

Years ago I warned my boss about some dangerous scaffold at the wharf, before I could blink he walked out on it and started bouncing. He said ‘ It’s alright, it’s alright ‘ he didn’t say it’s alright a third time. The whole thing gave way and he fell 3 flights surrounded in falling pipes and bars, dashed himself against a barnacle encrusted pylon and into the sea.
I guess it was alright then.



What you are asking me to do is test my interpretation of scripture against the Apostolic interpretation of scripture.
I have all the authority of a gardening contractor, how does that compare with the combined weight of all the Fathers and Bishops of the Church. Just folly.

Jesus didn’t found His Church on the bible, the bible didn’t exist then, He founded it on Peter and the Apostles.
Protestants founded their churches on their discordant interpretations of scripture, trying to reinvent Christian religion from text, text they have no hope to agree on. Text they had nothing to do with.

Why should I add to the chaos with yet another tradition of men from my own interpretations of scripture.

Where, in the Bible, do you read "don't study God's word, just leave it to the Roman Catholic Church because you might get it wrong?"

Just wondering where that is found so that I understand not to study God's word and leave it to the elite Pharisees and Sadducees to tell me what to believe.

I will wait for you to share that restriction, given to us by God.

 

[Cathode]

Where, in the Bible, do you read "don't study God's word, just leave it to the Roman Catholic Church because you might get it wrong?"

Just wondering where that is found so that I understand not to study God's word and leave it to the elite Pharisees and Sadducees to tell me what to believe.

I will wait for you to share that restriction, given to us by God.

You can read it and study it all you like, just don’t privately interpret it, or follow other private interpretations of it.

You already admitted being fallible, that’s as “ unstable “ as people need to be to twist scripture to their destruction. Look at all the unstable interpretations across bible alone Protestantism, for every interpretation is an opposing interpretation of scripture.
You couldn’t answer me when I asked who in Protestantism teaches the true interpretation of Scripture.

The other qualifier Peter points out is the “ ignorant “.

Ignorance of the Apostles interpretation of Scripture , ignorance of Apostolic Tradition.

That’s why Paul says hold to the Traditions we taught you, either by word of mouth or by letter.
The first thing Protestantism did was reject the word of mouth Tradition of the Apostles and only accepted the written tradition (scripture alone ), and started interpreting every wind of doctrine from scripture.

That’s why Catholics only follow the one ancient interpretation of scripture, not their own or any of the other unstable interpretations of the traditions of men.

 

[AustinC]

You can read it and study it all you like, just don’t privately interpret it, or follow other private interpretations of it.

You already admitted being fallible, that’s as “ unstable “ as people need to be to twist scripture to their destruction. Look at all the unstable interpretations across bible alone Protestantism, for every interpretation is an opposing interpretation of scripture.
You couldn’t answer me when I asked who in Protestantism teaches the true interpretation of Scripture.

The other qualifier Peter points out is the “ ignorant “.

Ignorance of the Apostles interpretation of Scripture , ignorance of Apostolic Tradition.

That’s why Paul says hold to the Traditions we taught you, either by word of mouth or by letter.
The first thing Protestantism did was reject the word of mouth Tradition of the Apostles and only accepted the written tradition (scripture alone ), and started interpreting every wind of doctrine from scripture.

That’s why Catholics only follow the one ancient interpretation of scripture, not their own or any of the other unstable interpretations of the traditions of men.

So, by your assertion in the first paragraph, absolutely no one can interpret the Bible, which means no one can study the Bible. This also means no one in the Vatican can interpret either since they are all fallible men who are as weak in spirit as all of us.

Do you not see the silliness of your assertion?

Moreso, there is zero biblical support for your assertion.

 

[AustinC]

When did the Roman Catholic Church Begin?

 

[37818]

What is known as the Catholic Church existed by the mid 3rd century as evidenced by one of the forged letters ascribed to Ignatius of Antioch, ". . . Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where
Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. . . ." - to the Smyrnaeans.

 

[Cathode]

So, by your assertion in the first paragraph, absolutely no one can interpret the Bible, which means no one can study the Bible. This also means no one in the Vatican can interpret either since they are all fallible men who are as weak in spirit as all of us.

Do you not see the silliness of your assertion?

Moreso, there is zero biblical support for your assertion.

No one can privately interpret the Scripture, not even the Pope.

The Pope can publicly interpret scripture through the Apostolic gift, but that’s a rare event.

All we do is preserve the ancient interpretation of Scripture that the Apostles handed down Father to son.

It makes sense doesn’t it, that there can be only one objective interpretation of Scripture. The Truth.

“In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed on in truth.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,3:3 (inter A.D. 180/199).

Not even the Church Fathers privately interpreted the scripture, they constantly maintained the Apostolic understanding of Scripture. Apostolic Tradition.

“Let us now investigate what are our common conceptions concerning the Spirit, as well those which have been gathered by us from Holy Scripture as well those which have been gathered concerning it as those which we have received from the unwritten tradition of the Fathers.” Basil, Holy Spirit 22 (c. A.D. 370).

“Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have delivered to us in a mystery by the Apostles by the tradition of the Apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force.” Basil, Holy Spirit 27 (c. A.D. 370).

The clown shows of I’ve seen, people interpreting the Scripture how they like, it’s nauseating and very worrying.

The Word of God is Holy, Sacred, not to be subjected to the muddy boot prints of human opinions.

To an outsider Protestantism seems like an endless searching and never finding the truth.

 

[37818]

The Pope can publicly interpret scripture through the Apostolic gift, but that’s a rare event.

The only Apostolic gift are the New Testament documents themselves. And the equal brotherhood of every genuine believer. Matthew 23:8, ". . . and all ye are brethren. . . ." And 1 John 2:27, ". . . But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. . . ." But also, 1 Corinthians 1:10, ". . . Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . ."

 

[Cathode]

The only Apostolic gift are the New Testament documents themselves. And the equal brotherhood of every genuine believer. Matthew 23:8, ". . . and all ye are brethren. . . ." And 1 John 2:27, ". . . But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. . . ."

The Apostles teach Catholics by The Spirit the interpretation of Scripture, through Apostolic Tradition, the Tradition of The Holy Spirit.
Not any man like Luther, Calvin or countless others.

But also, 1 Corinthians 1:10, ". . . Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . ."

How has that worked out across Protestantism, the divisions are endless. People are still contesting interpretations and doctrines on everything.
No one is settled and unified. Church hopping, disputes with pastors elders, break aways, constant strife, you name it.
Many have abandoned Protestant denominations and non denominations altogether in disgust to be a religion of one. That’s not the Church we read about in scripture.

The Bible became the source of their disunity, not their brotherly unity.

 

[AustinC]

No one can privately interpret the Scripture, not even the Pope.

The Pope can publicly interpret scripture through the Apostolic gift, but that’s a rare event.

All we do is preserve the ancient interpretation of Scripture that the Apostles handed down Father to son.

It makes sense doesn’t it, that there can be only one objective interpretation of Scripture. The Truth.

“In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed on in truth.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,3:3 (inter A.D. 180/199).

Not even the Church Fathers privately interpreted the scripture, they constantly maintained the Apostolic understanding of Scripture. Apostolic Tradition.

“Let us now investigate what are our common conceptions concerning the Spirit, as well those which have been gathered by us from Holy Scripture as well those which have been gathered concerning it as those which we have received from the unwritten tradition of the Fathers.” Basil, Holy Spirit 22 (c. A.D. 370).

“Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have delivered to us in a mystery by the Apostles by the tradition of the Apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force.” Basil, Holy Spirit 27 (c. A.D. 370).

The clown shows of I’ve seen, people interpreting the Scripture how they like, it’s nauseating and very worrying.

The Word of God is Holy, Sacred, not to be subjected to the muddy boot prints of human opinions.

To an outsider Protestantism seems like an endless searching and never finding the truth.

So, there is no interpretation that any human can do, unless it's a group Bible study where the group interprets scripture.
Now, tell me where the Bible gives us that law which we are forced to follow.

Of course, there is no such law. But, your indoctrination into the RCC demands you hold such a view so you don't get struck dead for your apostasy against the RCC. Yet, for all you know, the RCC may be in apostasy and you would be utterly ignorant of the apostasy since the RCC rules over you with an iron scepter that is ready to crush you into oblivion if you cross them. Honestly, I feel sorrow for you. What an intellectually and spiritually stunted life of fear you exhibit.

 

[37818]

The Apostles teach Catholics by The Spirit the interpretation of Scripture, through Apostolic Tradition, the Tradition of The Holy Spirit.
Not any man like Luther, Calvin or countless others.

The Apostolic teachings are solely the New Testament documents to us today.

How has that worked out across Protestantism, the divisions are endless. People are still contesting interpretations and doctrines on everything.
No one is settled and unified. Church hopping, disputes with pastors elders, break aways, constant strife, you name it.
Many have abandoned Protestant denominations and non denominations altogether in disgust to be a religion of one. That’s not the Church we read about in scripture.

The Bible became the source of their disunity, not their brotherly unity.

The problem are men, not God.

 

[Cathode]

So, there is no interpretation that any human can do, unless it's a group Bible study where the group interprets scripture.

The Apostles already gave scriptures interpretation from the start, why are people still trying to reinvent the wheel, people still trying to work out interpretations and doctrines 2000 years later.
The good news is that it is done already, all thats left to do is believe it.

Now, tell me where the Bible gives us that law which we are forced to follow.

Well Divinely inspired Scripture needs Divinely Inspired interpretation. Follow the Apostles interpretation, they are the Oracles Of God. Apostolic Tradition.

Assent to the Truth is not forced, it is something a man reaches up to grasp and taking it himself it only improves him and his condition.

Of course, there is no such law. But, your indoctrination into the RCC demands you hold such a view so you don't get struck dead for your apostasy against the RCC. Yet, for all you know, the RCC may be in apostasy and you would be utterly ignorant of the apostasy since the RCC rules over you with an iron scepter that is ready to crush you into oblivion if you cross them. Honestly, I feel sorrow for you. What an intellectually and spiritually stunted life of fear you exhibit.

Well it was really easy to find out in the end thank God.

The Church in the Bible was Infallible and the Catholic Church was the only Church in town claiming Infallibility, so the whole process of elimination was already done for me.
I’m not that bright so I was thankfully saved a long complicated process of finding out.
I identify as a sheep more than anything, I just want to be lead to those green pastures and still waters they talk about, not follow my nose and hope for the best. There’s wolf activity and whole bunch of other hazards apparently.

I’d rather be under the tyranny of Truth than the ever changing tyranny of human opinion.

Honestly mate, you don’t know what Protestantism looks like to an outsider, it looks like perpetual wrangling and bun fights over matters that were settled long ago.

 

[AustinC]

The Apostles already gave scriptures interpretation from the start, why are people still trying to reinvent the wheel, people still trying to work out interpretations and doctrines 2000 years later.
The good news is that it is done already, all thats left to do is believe it.

Share the exact passage where God tells us we cannot interpret His Word to us individually.

Well Divinely inspired Scripture needs Divinely Inspired interpretation. Follow the Apostles interpretation, they are the Oracles Of God. Apostolic Tradition.

Where do the Apostles interpret their own inspired writing? There is no scripture to declare that only the church at Rome can interpret. It wasn't until 600 AD that you get your tradition demanding the church at Rome can only interpret. For the previous 570 years individuals were interpreting God's word.

Assent to the Truth is not forced, it is something a man reaches up to grasp and taking it himself it only improves him and his condition.

This is you being entirely lazy or scared. You don't seek God, you seek the churches approval.

The Church in the Bible was Infallible and the Catholic Church was the only Church in town claiming Infallibility, so the whole process of elimination was already done for me.

We have 7 churches in the book of Revelation and none of them were infallible.
The RCC has zero scripture to claim infallibility. Therefore, you trust in a church that has openly lied to you.

I’m not that bright so I was thankfully saved a long complicated process of finding out.
I identify as a sheep more than anything, I just want to be lead to those green pastures and still waters they talk about, not follow my nose and hope for the best. There’s wolf activity and whole bunch of other hazards apparently.

Unfortunately as a sheep of the RCC, you may or may not be a sheep of Christ Jesus. For instance, your present Pope points people toward hell, not heaven.

I’d rather be under the tyranny of Truth than the ever changing tyranny of human opinion.

Then run from Jezebel as fast as you can, brother, because Rome is Jezebel.

Honestly mate, you don’t know what Protestantism looks like to an outsider, it looks like perpetual wrangling and bun fights over matters that were settled long ago.

I know that many cults tell their followers that only by doing exactly what leadership tells them can they gain heaven. I know that the RCC does exactly what cults do.

These truths were not settled long ago. The RCC didn't officially teach justification by faith plus works until the Council of Trent, after Luther called on the RCC to reform it's ways. Then, at the Council of Trent not all the bishops were there and the Pope pushed his agenda through.
Cathode, your faith is being placed in Jezebel

 

[Cathode]

Share the exact passage where God tells us we cannot interpret His Word to us individually.

Paul tells you in Scripture.

“ Hold to the traditions we taught you, either by word of mouth or letter. “

It’s by holding to two ancient traditions, not by taking just the written tradition and fabricating your own doctrines from it.

The Oral Tradition of the Apostles explains the written tradition of scripture. The work is done, you don’t have to reinvent Christianity from your interpretation of the text.

God is telling you that you can't interpret his word individually, when you see all the Bible aloners in disagreement on interpretation and doctrine from the same text. It’s self evident.
It’s been tried like communism, and it doesn’t work.

You don’t need God to come and tell you, he lets Captain Obvious tell you.

If God intended that Christianity should be by “ Scripture alone “ and that all one needed to do is pick up the Bible in prayerful good faith, then everyone would be given the same inspired understanding scripture despite human weakness. And we would all live happily ever after.

That’s not what’s happening, terrifyingly.

Luther very quickly saw the same clown show I have seen of people coming up with there own strange interpretations and doctrines.
Everyone saying they are inspired by The Holy Spirit, and everyone coming away with conflicting interpretations and doctrines.

This is not the work of The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth. Don’t attribute that whole mess to Him.

 

[AustinC]

Paul tells you in Scripture.

“ Hold to the traditions we taught you, either by word of mouth or letter. “

It’s by holding to two ancient traditions, not by taking just the written tradition and fabricating your own doctrines from it.

The Oral Tradition of the Apostles explains the written tradition of scripture. The work is done, you don’t have to reinvent Christianity from your interpretation of the text.

God is telling you that you can't interpret his word individually, when you see all the Bible aloners in disagreement on interpretation and doctrine from the same text. It’s self evident.
It’s been tried like communism, and it doesn’t work.

You don’t need God to come and tell you, he lets Captain Obvious tell you.

If God intended that Christianity should be by “ Scripture alone “ and that all one needed to do is pick up the Bible in prayerful good faith, then everyone would be given the same inspired understanding scripture despite human weakness. And we would all live happily ever after.

That’s not what’s happening, terrifyingly.

Luther very quickly saw the same clown show I have seen of people coming up with there own strange interpretations and doctrines.
Everyone saying they are inspired by The Holy Spirit, and everyone coming away with conflicting interpretations and doctrines.

This is not the work of The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth. Don’t attribute that whole mess to Him.

I'm holding to the traditions Paul taught. Why isn't your church doing the same thing? Why has your church left the traditions of Paul and Peter, James, and John? Why?

 

[Cathode]

I'm holding to the traditions Paul taught. Why isn't your church doing the same thing? Why has your church left the traditions of Paul and Peter, James, and John? Why?

2 Thess:2 15 “So then, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.”

Luther’s revolutionary idea was “ scripture alone “, so he rejected the oral tradition of the Apostles from the start, which meant he broke from scripture cited here and the Oral tradition.

See how one small break from the scripture leads to the disaster of every wind of doctrine.
A whole conga line of private interpreters followed Luther, till today not only don’t they resemble the Apostolic Church, they don’t even resemble Luther’s tradition.