The meaning of "dead" in terms of spiritually dead?

[convicted1]

Brother Herald posted this in the "Error on bb, part deux" thread:

Actually I have known quite a few unbelievers who find the Bible logical. It is not logic that escapes these people, it is the ability to believe spiritual truth. Because unbelievers are dead in sin (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13) they are not able to appropriate spiritual truth by faith. The word for "dead" in both passages is the Greek word nekros. It means dead as in a corpse. There is a reason Paul used that specific word. Someone who is dead is incapable of doing anything. That is the condition of the sinner when he encounters spiritual truth. He may understand the words of the Bible, but the truth escape him because he is dead to spiritual things. Apart from God doing a unilateral work of grace in his heart, the sinful man would never be able to understand and believe (Eph. 2:4-9).

Now, I agree that as sinners, we were spiritually dead. Dead meaning we were seperated from God due to OUR sins(and not Adam's, Eve's, Moses', Aaron's, Joshus's, Rahab's, Ruth's, David's, mom's , or dad's). Now, in that dead state, our soul was never a corpse. A corpse can do nothing good or bad. Our soul is what keeps our physical bodies alive, and if it were to die the same as our bodies, then we are dead.


Look at Luke chapter 16. The rich man died, was buried, and in hell he lifted up his eyes, and saw Lazurus sleeping in Father Abraham's bosom. He sure didn't act like a corpse to me. He could see(saw Lazarus sleeping in Father Abraham's bosom), speak(spoke with Father Abraham), hear(heard what Father Abraham said to him), feel(he felt the torment of the flames), tatse(desired one drop of water to cool his burning tongue), and probably smell....that's all six senses right there, Brother Herald.....and the Spirit was no where close to him to make him able to do these things, either....... A corpse can do NONE of these, but be in a dormant state. A spiritually dead soul is still functional........and not a corpse.....which can do nothing. This spiritually dead soul can hear the gospel appeal through the working of the Spirit, but until he eats of Jesus' flesh, and drinks of His blood(spiritually speaking), he is still dead.....seperated from God due to their sins.

The way I understand your stance is that a corpse can rebel all the day long, which is doing something, but can't accept the gospel appeal?

 

[HisWitness]

Brother Herald posted this in the "Error on bb, part deux" thread:




Now, I agree that as sinners, we were spiritually dead. Dead meaning we were seperated from God do to OUR sins(and not Adam's, Eve's, Moses', Aaron's, Joshus's, Rahab's, Ruth's, David's, mom's , or dad's). Now, in that dead state, our soul was never a corpse. A corpse can do nothing good or bad. Our soul is what keeps our physical bodies alive, and if it were to die the same as our bodies, then we are dead.

The way I understand your stance is that a corpse can rebel all the day long, which is doing something, but can't accept the gospel appeal?

When God told adam in the day he ate of the fruit that he would die--he wasnt saying adam was gonna die that day--although fellowship was broken--God was saying In Dieing thou shalt SURELY Die.I myself believe it to be SOUL DEATH--when the body died the Soul also died until the resurrection.

 

[convicted1]

When God told adam in the day he ate of the fruit that he would die--he wasnt saying adam was gonna die that day--although fellowship was broken--God was saying In Dieing thou shalt SURELY Die.I myself believe it to be SOUL DEATH--when the body died the Soul also died until the resurrection.

Well Brother, if the soul died that very instant, then Adam would have died. God made Adam from the dust, and he was lifeless until God breathed the breath of life(Adam's soul), into him. The soul is what keeps our hearts beating, our lungs inhaling and exhaling, have a blood pressure etc. If our soul is a literal corpse, then we are dead. The rich man in hell was a dead soul, yes, but dead via seperated from God....he was experiencing the 2nd death, which is eternal seperation from God. When we die physically, the soul leaves our bodies, and it(physical body) dies and becomes dormant. Now, if the person who died was a raging alcoholic, you could bury him with a gallon of moonshine, and he wouldn't drink it, taste it, smell it, touch it, neither acknowledge it. The body when it dies, goes dormant, but our souls, if they die, they will never to cease to function. To be spiritually dead=being seperated from God because our sins our a barrier betwixt us and Him.

 

[Herald]

Now, in that dead state, our soul was never a corpse. A corpse can do nothing good or bad. Our soul is what keeps our physical bodies alive, and if it were to die the same as our bodies, then we are dead.

Just because the soul is spiritually dead does not mean the physical body must die. Spiritually dead means the soul is dead to righteousness; to the things of God. Man was created a spiritual creature:

[27]*So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
(Genesis 1:27 ESV)

Man was created a moral creature. His morality was without defect upon his creation. When Adam sinned his morality (i.e. his "nature") was corrupted. Adam, acting as our fair and just representative, handed down his corrupt nature to his posterity (us). As sinners we are guilty of a double blow; we are sinners because we are born in sin, and we are sinners because we sin. Sin places every man in a sort of living death. That is why Paul used the word nekros in Eph. 2:1 and Col. 2:13. Paul could have said, "you were fallen in your trespasses and sins", but he did not. He specifically used the word for physical death. Why is that? The answer is clear: the soul of man is dead to the things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 elucidates further:

[14]*The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV)

Who is the "natural man" in this passage? This man is the unregenerate man, the unsaved man. He does not accept spiritual truth because it seems foolish to him. Why? Because he is not able to understand them. Why? Because they are spiritually discerned. Why can he not understand spiritual truth? Because he is spiritually dead (c.f. Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13).

Even in hell man will still possess a soul. His soul will remain corrupt, evil, and unrepentant. In other words it will remain dead, along with a body that will be remain equally corrupt. Together they will experience an eternity separated from God's presence in eternal torment.

In summary, the sinner being spiritually dead does not mean the absence of a soul. It means his soul is dead to the things of God.

 

[convicted1]

Well, Brother Herald, it was you who stated a corpse can't do anything. Sinning/rebelling is doing something. Spiritual death isn't a soul that is the same as a dead physical body. Jesus stated,"The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the Son of man, and they that hear, shall live." Jesus said the dead shall hear. I'll take His word that He spoke the truth here.

 

[JimmyH]

The Holy Spirit enlightened the eyes of my understanding when I was 36 years old. Before that I was as spiritually dead as a stump. The gospel was foolishness unto me. When I finally began reading the NT and got into Romans the moment came when I knew the gospel was true. That I was a sinner and needed a Savior. Only then was I quickened.

On another note ..... In my younger days I was an ironworker involved in the erecting of structural steel. On more than one occasion I've seen death up close and personal. Before I was spiritually alive seeing a dead body wasn't the same as it was afterwards. It was only afterwards that I could discern that the flesh is the vessel that contained the soul and without the soul an empty shell.

 

[MB]

Just because the soul is spiritually dead does not mean the physical body must die. Spiritually dead means the soul is dead to righteousness; to the things of God. Man was created a spiritual creature:

[27]*So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
(Genesis 1:27 ESV)

Man was created a moral creature. His morality was without defect upon his creation. When Adam sinned his morality (i.e. his "nature") was corrupted. Adam, acting as our fair and just representative, handed down his corrupt nature to his posterity (us). As sinners we are guilty of a double blow; we are sinners because we are born in sin, and we are sinners because we sin. Sin places every man in a sort of living death. That is why Paul used the word nekros in Eph. 2:1 and Col. 2:13. Paul could have said, "you were fallen in your trespasses and sins", but he did not. He specifically used the word for physical death. Why is that? The answer is clear: the soul of man is dead to the things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 elucidates further:

[14]*The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV)

Who is the "natural man" in this passage? This man is the unregenerate man, the unsaved man. He does not accept spiritual truth because it seems foolish to him. Why? Because he is not able to understand them. Why? Because they are spiritually discerned. Why can he not understand spiritual truth? Because he is spiritually dead (c.f. Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13).

Even in hell man will still possess a soul. His soul will remain corrupt, evil, and unrepentant. In other words it will remain dead, along with a body that will be remain equally corrupt. Together they will experience an eternity separated from God's presence in eternal torment.

In summary, the sinner being spiritually dead does not mean the absence of a soul. It means his soul is dead to the things of God.

Here is a story of a man who was suppose to be dead Spiritually. He not only had a personal conversation with God it was also a spiritual conversation.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

Now If Cain was dead Spiritually and unable to hear or understand Spiritual things. Then how did this conversation take place? Since God is Spirit.
MB

 

[Luke2427]

Brother Herald posted this in the "Error on bb, part deux" thread:




Now, I agree that as sinners, we were spiritually dead. Dead meaning we were seperated from God due to OUR sins(and not Adam's, Eve's, Moses', Aaron's, Joshus's, Rahab's, Ruth's, David's, mom's , or dad's). Now, in that dead state, our soul was never a corpse. A corpse can do nothing good or bad. Our soul is what keeps our physical bodies alive, and if it were to die the same as our bodies, then we are dead.


Look at Luke chapter 16. The rich man died, was buried, and in hell he lifted up his eyes, and saw Lazurus sleeping in Father Abraham's bosom. He sure didn't act like a corpse to me. He could see(saw Lazarus sleeping in Father Abraham's bosom), speak(spoke with Father Abraham), hear(heard what Father Abraham said to him), feel(he felt the torment of the flames), tatse(desired one drop of water to cool his burning tongue), and probably smell....that's all six senses right there, Brother Herald.....and the Spirit was no where close to him to make him able to do these things, either....... A corpse can do NONE of these, but be in a dormant state. A spiritually dead soul is still functional........and not a corpse.....which can do nothing. This spiritually dead soul can hear the gospel appeal through the working of the Spirit, but until he eats of Jesus' flesh, and drinks of His blood(spiritually speaking), he is still dead.....seperated from God due to their sins.

The way I understand your stance is that a corpse can rebel all the day long, which is doing something, but can't accept the gospel appeal?

Dead toward righteousness; dead toward God.

As able to do right and please God as a dead man is able to do anything.

This is why the Bible says that EVERYTHING not done in faith is SIN.

EVERYHTING.

EVERYTHING.

NOTHING a sinner does is done with the motive of God's glory- NOTHING. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

So EVERYTHING he does- no matter how nice and beneficial horizontally (human to human) is ALWAYS sin vertically (human to God).

Our good works are to ALWAYS have as their primary motive God's glory. Jesus said "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN."

Even the good works of CHRISTIANS that are not performed with the glory of God as their primary motive are burned up like wood hay and stubble.

This is why the Bible says the even "The PLOWING of the wicked (sinner) is sin."

This is why the Bible says, "The SACRIFICE of the wicked is abominable..."

This is why the Bible says, "Though I give my body to be BURNED if I have not charity (the greatest commandment is the guide of what that is- FIRST LOVE GOD...) it is nothing."

There was nothing spiritually pleasing to God when lost firemen charged into the towers and burned alive saving others. (This is assuming that any of them were not saved. If they were not saved then God rejects the ashes of their sacrifice). That is how HOLY God is.

EVERYTHING the unregenerate man does- every step he takes- is sin in the eyes of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, Brother Herald, it was you who stated a corpse can't do anything. Sinning/rebelling is doing something. Spiritual death isn't a soul that is the same as a dead physical body. Jesus stated,"The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the Son of man, and they that hear, shall live." Jesus said the dead shall hear. I'll take His word that He spoke the truth here.

Jesus Christ did say dead did He not?

 

[Luke2427]

Well, Brother Herald, it was you who stated a corpse can't do anything. Sinning/rebelling is doing something. Spiritual death isn't a soul that is the same as a dead physical body. Jesus stated,"The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the Son of man, and they that hear, shall live." Jesus said the dead shall hear. I'll take His word that He spoke the truth here.

The illustration is not applicable for this reason: The way God raises the dead in the resurrection is that He commands the spirits which have departed from their bodies to return to them.

Regeneration is a very different thing. There is a body already living with a functioning spirit inside of it. It is just simply a whole different thing that does not compare to the passage you quote here.

The point of being "dead" spiritually is in the next two words of that passage: "IN SINS".

The idea is that the unregenerate sinner is lifeless to do anything but sin. And that is, as I have proven in my previous post in this thread, the overall teaching of Scripture.

 

[convicted1]

Dead toward righteousness; dead toward God.

As able to do right and please God as a dead man is able to do anything.

This is why the Bible says that EVERYTHING not done in faith is SIN.

EVERYHTING.

EVERYTHING.

NOTHING a sinner does is done with the motive of God's glory- NOTHING. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

So EVERYTHING he does- no matter how nice and beneficial horizontally (human to human) is ALWAYS sin vertically (human to God).

Our good works are to ALWAYS have as their primary motive God's glory. Jesus said "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN."

Even the good works of CHRISTIANS that are not performed with the glory of God as their primary motive are burned up like wood hay and stubble.

This is why the Bible says the even "The PLOWING of the wicked (sinner) is sin."

This is why the Bible says, "The SACRIFICE of the wicked is abominable..."

This is why the Bible says, "Though I give my body to be BURNED if I have not charity (the greatest commandment is the guide of what that is- FIRST LOVE GOD...) it is nothing."

There was nothing spiritually pleasing to God when lost firemen charged into the towers and burned alive saving others. (This is assuming that any of them were not saved. If they were not saved then God rejects the ashes of their sacrifice). That is how HOLY God is.

EVERYTHING the unregenerate man does- every step he takes- is sin in the eyes of God.

Go back to the OP and read where I quoted Brother Herald from another thread. He stated that a spiritually dead soul does nothing.....is a corpse. If a dead soul is in a literally dead state, it can't sin, seeing that sinning is something. Spiritual death equates to being seperated from God because of their sins. I was answering Brother Herald's post.

 

[MB]

Jesus Christ did say dead did He not?

Sure He did and he also said they would hear and that time is now
MB

 

[convicted1]

Jesus Christ did say dead did He not?

BINGO!!! We have a winner here....give this man a cee-gar....and they(the dead) that hear, shall live. Hearing brings life, and not vice versa.

 

[MB]

Go back to the OP and read where I quoted Brother Herald from another thread. He stated that a spiritually dead soul does nothing.....is a corpse. If a dead soul is in a literally dead state, it can't sin, seeing that sinning is something. Spiritual death equates to being seperated from God because of their sins. I was answering Brother Herald's post.

Yes you were and did a good job of it, as well as answering Old regular's post.
MB

 

[Herald]

Well, Brother Herald, it was you who stated a corpse can't do anything. Sinning/rebelling is doing something. Spiritual death isn't a soul that is the same as a dead physical body. Jesus stated,"The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the Son of man, and they that hear, shall live." Jesus said the dead shall hear. I'll take His word that He spoke the truth here.

I guess I assumed that it would be understood that being spiritually dead means being unable to respond in a positive manner to the things of God. I apologize for not making myself clear. Hopefully I rectified that in my previous post.

 

[convicted1]

The illustration is not applicable for this reason:

How so? Oh, it shoots the pre-faith regeneration in the foot.

The way God raises the dead in the resurrection is that He commands the spirits which have departed from their bodies to return to them.

Don't disagree with this one iota. But, Jesus wasn't talking about the resurrection here in verses 24,25.....He speaks about that in verses 28,29. Verses 24,25 are talking about those who are dead in their sins hearing God speaking/drawing them in their sinful state.....

Regeneration is a very different thing. There is a body already living with a functioning spirit inside of it. It is just simply a whole different thing that does not compare to the passage you quote here.

Hearing goes right alongside regeneration. If they don't hear God, they won't be regenerated. Hearing causes regeneration to take place. Regeneration=Salvation.

The point of being "dead" spiritually is in the next two words of that passage: "IN SINS".

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The idea is that the unregenerate sinner is lifeless to do anything but sin. And that is, as I have proven in my previous post in this thread, the overall teaching of Scripture.

The unregenerated sinner can hear God. I was a sinner that heard God for years. When God saved me, I was lost right up to the very nanosecond before He saved me, an underserving sinner. He gave me life the very moment He save me, and not one nanosecond before.

 

[psalms109:31]

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

If I had to sum the Gospel up it would be that but it is incomplete. The Gospel is the life Jesus lived and the words that He said.

It does not matter if you are dead there is life in Christ. It does not matter if you think your limited knowledge of the Gospel is foolishness. You come to Him just the way you are to Him. You listen and learn from Him not just hear and listen. It is His job to give you life. It is His job to teach you it isn't foolishness. These are the ones the Father has given to His Son. God has chosen the new man in Christ Jesus not the old man.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”

 

[convicted1]

I guess I assumed that it would be understood that being spiritually dead means being unable to respond in a positive manner to the things of God. I apologize for not making myself clear. Hopefully I rectified that in my previous post.

Well, Brother Harold, a corpse does nothing good or evil, seeing it's in a dormant state. I read where someone quoted Pink(I didn't read Pink's quote myself, just what that fella said) saying that saying a spiritually dead soul being a corpse is a bad analogy.....that's what the person said he read from Pink, and not I.

 

[Herald]

Well, Brother Harold, a corpse does nothing good or evil, seeing it's in a dormant state. I read where someone quoted Pink(I didn't read Pink's quote myself, just what that fella said) saying that saying a spiritually dead soul being a corpse is a bad analogy.....that's what the person said he read from Pink, and not I.

Well, Paul used nekros for a reason. If he simply meant to say that a sinner is spiritually fallen he could have used the word exepesate, but he did not.

[2:1]*And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
(Ephesians 2:1 ESV)

dead = νεκρος (nekros) - def. one that has breathed his last. Lifeless. A corpse.

Friend, the word means what it means. The sinner is spiritually dead just like a corpse is physically dead. The sinner still has a soul, but it is wholly enslaved to sin and is incapable of any righteous act. This is just simple exegesis of the text.

 

[MB]

Well, Paul used nekros for a reason. If he simply meant to say that a sinner is spiritually fallen he could have used the word exepesate, but he did not.

[2:1]*And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
(Ephesians 2:1 ESV)

dead = νεκρος (nekros) - def. one that has breathed his last. Lifeless. A corpse.

Friend, the word means what it means. The sinner is spiritually dead just like a corpse is physically dead. The sinner still has a soul, but it is wholly enslaved to sin and is incapable of any righteous act. This is just simple exegesis of the text.

Can the dead be enslaved? That can't be true. The dead are dead (neckros) remember.
MB