The Meaning of Faith

[Pastor David]

HP: "Pastor David, if you use the words 'all men' in a small group that you KNOW are all believers, can I wisely assume your remark is only speaking to those in the group I am addressing?"

Me: When I make a statement that could be misconstrued, I take special care to qualify my statement, and provide an appropriate context so that what is being said is not misunderstood. If I use a statement like "all men", I might "all men, universally" or "all that are present here tonight", etc.

HP: "For instance if you said, "All have sinned,' is that limited to just those in that specific group being addressed, or are you making a univeral statement?"

Me: Again, it would depend on the context.

HP: "Paul stated "all men have received a measure of faith.""

Me: Looking at Paul in context, he said;

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor David: When I make a statement that could be misconstrued, I take special care to qualify my statement, and provide an appropriate context so that what is being said is not misunderstood. If I use a statement like "all men", I might "all men, universally" or "all that are present here tonight", etc.

HP: If Scripture did that plainly enough for all to agree upon there would be no need to have any discussions and the world could not contain the volumes it would take to insure no false interpretations. I take that back. There are some that would disagree if it said the sun rises in the east.

HP: "For instance if you said, "All have sinned,' is that limited to just those in that specific group being addressed, or are you making a univeral statement?"

Pastor David: Me: Again, it would depend on the context.

HP: Context is NOT always certain simply because of who is being addressed. That is a most misused notion in certain circles.

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith."

Pastor, the text is the text and what you call context is only those being addressed. That is NOT enough info to establish any such inference as you make from the passage. You conclude that all men does not mean all men. That is an assumption on your part simply not established by the text itself nor anything you call "context" that you have established.

 

[DHK]

Pastor, the text is the text and what you call context is only those being addressed. That is NOT enough info to establish any such inference as you make from the passage. You conclude that all men does not mean all men. That is an assumption on your part simply not established by the text itself nor anything you call "context" that you have established.

You pit your philosophy against Scripture. I choose Scripture. You wonder why people get upset at you. It is because you don't listen. It is because when you are presented all the evidence you still refuse it. It is a shut and closed case and still you want to argue it. Amazing!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lord, help us.

 

[The Biblicist]

Lord, help us.

No, Lord help YOU!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thanks Biblicist. I trust He will. :thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

Thanks Biblicist. I trust He will. :thumbs:

For your sake I hope so!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: "Pastor David, if you use the words 'all men' in a small group that you KNOW are all believers, can I wisely assume your remark is only speaking to those in the group I am addressing?"

Pastor David: Me: When I make a statement that could be misconstrued, I take special care to qualify my statement, and provide an appropriate context so that what is being said is not misunderstood. If I use a statement like "all men", I might "all men, universally" or "all that are present here tonight", etc.

HP: That is always good to do, but so often it is not. Just as on this list Biblicist has stated that 'Every man' does or recognizes such and such, I have to remind him that I am a man and do not agree. I am not being too hard on Biblicist here for I think we all do that in common parlance at least from time to time. My children sure used 'everybody else' a lot! Scripture is written in common parlance.

HP: "Paul stated "all men have received a measure of faith."

Pastor David: Looking at Paul in context, he said;

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith."

HP: I agree that that is what it said. I do not see how you are establishing the 'context' of it to in any exclude the notion that the 'all' mentioned in this passage is not universally so. Faith given to all men I believe consists in the following. First, God is eternal. He is,by His own existence, the substance of our faith. All men have been given in measure knowledge of God and what God requires of them via conscience and nature (Romans, the Ps etc. make that point clear) so none are without excuse. Such knowledge is the substance of that measure of faith given to all. God has granted to every man the ability to yield themselves to Him via faith, even those that do not know Him via His Son, Jesus Christ. In this manner is the measure of faith granted to all. Certainly faith in such a measure in no way insinuates that saving faith is accomplished in all. Saving faith only comes as we hear the gospel, and willingly yield our members unto God in repentance and again in faith, that He is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.

In no way do I limit the measure of faith granted to all men as testified by this verse, to believers alone. In no way do I believe that faith is all of God, for God calls on man to exercise his own will in agreement to the measure of faith and light we have received. Yes, God is the source of all faith by virtue of Him being the very essence and substance of our faith, but such a measure of faith will never bring salvation or please God until we willingly, without force or coercion, voluntarily exercise faith by an act of our will.

Again, God is the Sole Author and Finisher of our faith by virtue of His Eternal Existence and the Sole Rewarder of our faith and the plan of salvation. Still yet, saving faith will not be accomplished apart from our forming of voluntary intents consistent with His commands to repent and believe. Faith is a condition man must fulfill in order to be saved. It is a work to be performed by man via the formation of trust and obedience to His stated conditions. Our faith is not a meritorious act, but rather a simple fulfilling of a stated condition, without which, no one shall inherit eternal life.

 

[Pastor David]

HP: " Faith given to all men I believe consists in the following. First, God is eternal. He is,by His own existence, the substance of our faith. All men have been given in measure knowledge of God and what God requires of them via conscience and nature (Romans, the Ps etc. make that point clear) so none are without excuse. Such knowledge is the substance of that measure of faith given to all."

Me: You're confusing knowledge and faith. Many people have knowledge of God who have no faith. The Devil has a knowledge of God, yet has no faith. Faith, while it consists of an element of knowledge (notia) it is not limited to knowledge. Faith also contains assent (assensus) and trust (fiducia).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pasto David: You're confusing knowledge and faith. Many people have knowledge of God who have no faith. The Devil has a knowledge of God, yet has no faith. Faith, while it consists of an element of knowledge (notia) it is not limited to knowledge. Faith also contains assent (assensus) and trust (fiducia).

HP: IF they believe something, they trust something to be true. If they trust something to be true, that is a clear indication of having faith in the validity of the knowledge or impression, and is therefore is a clear indication of a measure of faith.

 

[Pastor David]

HP: IF they believe something, they trust something to be true. If they trust something to be true, that is a clear indication of having faith in the validity of the knowledge or impression, and is therefore is a clear indication of a measure of faith.

Not necessarily. I often use the example of watching an airplane take off. I can watch an airplane fly off into the sky, and while standing on the ground, believe it would carry me to my destination. I can even assent to it's flight worthiness, and it's ability to accomplish its task. In other words, I can have both belief and assent while standing on the ground. But I do not exercise faith (trust) in the plane until I actually get on board and allow it to carry me.

 

[glfredrick]

We should mention that faith is often used in verb form in the Scriptures... :thumbsup:

 

[billwald]

> I can watch an airplane fly off into the sky, and while standing on the ground, believe it would carry me to my destination. I can even assent to it's flight worthiness, and it's ability to accomplish its task. In other words, I can have both belief and assent while standing on the ground. But I do not exercise faith (trust) in the plane until I actually get on board and allow it to carry me.

On the other hand most people choose to "believe in" Christianity because of the promise of pie in the sky by and by. Signing on to Christianity is like watching planes at the airport. We can't exercise this faith without dying. We could be wrong but there is no way to prove it in this life.