The Meaning of John 15: Love or Doom for Believers?

If he can't and you die before the rapture takes place, you have no hope of being resurrected. The verse speaks of physical death, just as the temple referred to is the physical body. We are admonished here to take care of our bodies, as they are the temple of God. God's presence in the Old Testament was symbolically found in a physical place called the Temple located in Jerusalem. God's presence is symbolically found in the bodies of each and every believer. As the Israelites carefully looked after the Temple of the Old Testament, we need to take care of our own bodies that we may use them for the Lord. If we don't we may fall under the judgement of God--physically. See 1Cor.11:30. Some were judged with death.
DHK

 

But regarding the judgment of God, we are specifically warned:
Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The temple in 1cor 3 may refer to the physical body, although I think more precisely he is talking about the church in this context. But regardless, he doesn't say that the temple is going to be destroyed, but whosoever defiles the temple. The judgment of believers is going to occur at the second coming. It would be pointless to be warning of mere physical death at the judgment seat of Christ, most of the believers will already be dead by that time.

 

Are you a SDA. This is the same argument that they use to "prove" their case for annihilation of the wicked. What does the word "destroy" mean? Destroy does not mean annihilate, and never has. I have warned my chidren many times not to come near my computer here and knock a cup of coffee onto the keyboard. It will "destroy" the computer. If you run your engine of your car until it is dry of oil you will destroy it. If you allow your three year old to take your radio and "wash" it in the bathtub it will be destroyed. In all cases the object will be ruined, or rendered inoperable, but not annihilated. To destroy does not have to mean annihilate. Most times it doesn't. So why should we assume that in Mat. when our Lord says "destroy both body and soul," it refers to annihilation? I have no reason to believe that it does.

I will not bow the heresy of SDA teaching. Do you?
DHK

 

When did I ever say anything about annihilation? You said destroy referred to physical death, I say God says He can destroy both the body and soul. Why would you try to associate that with the SDA? God can destroy a person, both body and soul according to His word, and raise them up again. Do you suppose God could not fix a broken radio?

 

Your original question:
"Can God raise up something he has destroyed?"
Implied an answer of NO.

The entire discussion smacks of the doctrine of the annihilation of the wicked.
DHK

 

I'm not implying anything of the sort. If God warns a believer of destruction because his works do not measure up, this does not negate the promise of salvation, being raised up on the last day. God can and will destroy believers for defiling the temple with their works of wood, hay and stubble. But they will still be saved, yet so as by fire.

 

What do you mean God warns a person of destruction. Either you are speaking of annihilation or physical death; SDA doctrine or physical death as I believe the Bible is speaking of. So just what kind of destruction are you speaking of?
DHK

 

Why do you keep telling me I mean something other than what I said? I mean destroyed, body and soul, and then raised up again. If God can destroy a body and raise it up again, does that mean He annihilated it? Does it matter? God can destroy something and then restore it perfectly. If He can do it with a body, he can do it with a body and soul.

God says in 1Cor 3 that if any man defiles the temple, which temple we are, him shall God destroy. That is a warning to believers. Unbelievers are not defiling the temple with their works. The destruction takes place at the judgment, seeing as it is in response to the believers works being 'judged' unworthy (wood hay and stubble). This is not talking about mere physical death, which we are told not to fear. We are told instead to fear God who can destroy 'body and soul'. That is the destruction I am talking about. If you can find an SDA who believes that an eternally secure believer can be destroyed at the judgment seat and still be saved, I'll eat my hat. Ok, I won't really eat my hat.

 

What is funny (or sad) is that this doctrine has been so obscured and perverted that it is utterly foreign to most believers and they don't have a pigeon-hole to put it in. But a new believer can get it right off the bat, and it makes perfect sense, because his mind hasn't been cluttered up with 'theology'.

 

The children of Israel were destroyed in the wilderness. They were already in the promised land; they were saved. But, they were short of the land flowing with milk and honey, which is the better part of the inheritance.

"Destroy" (apollumi) does not have to do with being saved or unsaved, is has to do with the loss of one's life in the age to come. This is "perishing" or "apollumi".

[2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ] His promise is singular. It’s not promises; it’s referring to something specific. This is talking about the inheritance that has been promised to Christians who live a faithful, obedient life.

So, to whom is this verse being written? It says, “us-ward”; it includes the author as well as those to whom he’s writing. It says that he’s not willing that any of us should perish [apollumi], is the implication here, and that’s what is says in the Greek texts. He’s not willing that any of us should perish, but that we all might come to repentance.

You can see the context to this passage is you look with me in verses 11-14, it is talking about godliness; it's referring to "us"; it's talking about our way of life. [Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.]

This is talking about preparation for ruling and reigning. Those who perish (or lose their life) will not have position of honor and authority in the coming Kingdom.

You have to have life before you can lose it.

 

Unless you are a SDA, your posts don't make much sense.
Paul said: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
At death our spirit/souls go to be with the Lord, even as Peter's, Paul's, Mary's, Jame's, and all the saints who have died before us. They are all with the Lord. The spirit is immortal. Upon death it goes to either heaven or hell. If it goes to hell it is being destroyed on a continual basis. On a continual basis it is separated from God and is being tormented. That is continual destruction, continual torment, continual separation from God. If you say it is annihilation then you believe as an SDA.
So what is your definition of destroy/destruction? You haven't answered that question yet.

God will raise up all bodies at the resurrection. The resurrection always refers to the body, nothing more. Or do you here believe in J.W. doctrine, who deny the bodily resurrrection and believe in a so-called "spirit-resurrection." The only resurrection to take place will be the resurrection of the body. The spirit of the believer is already in heaven. Soul and spirit are often used interchangeably in the Bible.

"If he can do it with a body he can do it with the soul." No, he cannot do anything that goes against his nature or against his word. The resurrection speaks only to the body.

You have stated an opinion that has no Scriptural backing. The temple is the body as it states in verse 16. The word "destroy" again does not mean annihilate. In fact that definition does not even appear in Strong's. It has more the sense of defile or ruin. God will bring to ruination the body of that who continues to abuse his own body. That is happening in our generation. Think of AIDS, and other such diseases, many of such are coming upon this generation because of their immorality.

These two verses are not talking of the judgement seat of Christ. It is a different paragraph. Remeber there were not paragraph and chapter breaks in the original manuscripts.
DHK

 

That is a lot of tradition. What Paul said was this:

2 Corinthians 5:8-10
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Whether or not you can extrapolate from his statement that he is 'willing rather to be absent from the body' that all believers fly to heaven when they die is debatable. But it doesn't matter, because regardless of where they are, they are going to appear before the judgment seat of Christ, per verse 10. Which is what Paul states is the reason (for) that we labor to be accepted of him.

All I know for sure is the punishment will fit the crime. There are levels of reward in the kingdom, and there are levels of reward in hell. Once again, I see a traditional teaching about what happens in hell, that appears perhaps to be drawn from scripture more properly relating to the lake of fire.

Luke 16:23-24
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

This doesn't sound like annihilation to me.

Of course it is a bodily resurrection. When a man is resurrected, he is resurrected whole. It speaks nothing of what state he was in before he was resurrected. The only thing I know for sure is he is dead.

I don't even know what this means. Show me where in scripture it says it is against His nature to destroy a mans soul.

No, verse 16 says nothing about the body.

1 Corinthians 3:16
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

but even if it did, it doesn't say that the temple is destroyed, it says whosoever defiles the temple is destroyed. If your body can defile the temple without you being there then I guess you are safe.

I guess context means nothing when you can just throw a paragraph marker in there and break it anywhere you want to. God certainly judges believers in this life, but that doesn't bar Him from judging them in the next.

1 Timothy 5:24
24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

 

To the contrary. The idea that they are the same thing is the teaching of natural evolution that man is only a dichotomous being... a body and a soul or spirit. The Bible teaches that man is a trichotomous being that has a body a soul and a spirit:

Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

James_Newman said that.
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umm. that's cause there WONT be any annihilation... i laugh at the fact that there could be.
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sorry i didnt read the previous posts...

 

I am not a dichotomist, but rather a trichotomist:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--I simply said that sometimes in Scripture the terms: "soul" and "spirit" are used interchangeably, which they are. The word "soul" especially is used in a number of different ways in Scripture.

 

Perhaps you could supply some examples.

 

The "soul" that sinneth it shall die.
--This refers to the entire person, not just the soul, the seat of the affections within you.
Often the word "soul" defines the person, not its inner being:

Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

However more accurately the soul is the seat of the affections, the will, the mind, the place of reason, etc.

Genesis 19:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
--She was expressing her carnal desires from within.

Likewise Jacob did the same thing:
Genesis 27:4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

Here I believe is where the soul is used interchangeably with spirit.
Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
--What went to paradise? Her soul or her spirit? I believe that it is the spirit that is immortal. The spirit is that which communicates with God. The spirit lives on forever, not the soul. The soul is more like the mind or the brain. The spirit is the spiritual part of man--that which God makes alive at the time of salvation, that which will go to heaven at death.

Leviticus 5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
--Who sins? The soul? The spirit? or the body? It is the entire person that sins.

In the New Testament:
Here is an unsaved man:
Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
--He is thinking, reasoning out loud. It is not his spirit that is being referred to here.

Compare:
Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
--Was Mary magnifying the Lord with her spirit or soul? What fits the context best?

Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
--What about Jesus? Was it his spirit or soul that was exceeding sorrowful? Why or why not? I believe that you will find the words are used interchangeably in many cases.
DHK

 

So, it's your opinion that they are interchangeable, using your interpretation, not translation. Scripture does not state that explicitly, and it's my opinion that it will support otherwise. Remember, even the animals have souls, but they don't have spirits. They are two separate things.

[Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.] The Word of God is quick, or living and operative. The word of God has an incisive and penetrating quality. It lays bare self-delusions and misleading or false moral arguments. It leaves no room for doubt of the truth. The word of God divides asunder the soul and spirit.

As men, we can’t see the difference between soul and spirit; but God can. The soul (psuche) is the living part of man, or the life, if you will. The soul is the sensual part. The spirit (pneuma) is the immaterial and immortal part of man. Animals have souls, but they have no spirit. Man, created in the image of God is a trichotomous being; he has three parts. [1 Thessalonians 5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. ] The Word of God can discern between the soul and the spirit.

The Word of God can reach through to the soul, which is the lower part of man’s nature or the seat of animal desire; The Word of God can take this part which man has in common with the brutes and separate it from the spirit; the spirit is the higher part of man that is receptive to the spirit of God. When the soul or life is removed, the body dies. [Isaiah 53:10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.] It pleased the Lord – which means it was voluntary – It pleased the Lord to what? Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.

Side note: The Hebrew word for “soul is “nephesh” and the Greek word for “soul” is “psuche” and you can find these words applied to animals in Genesis 1:20, 21, 30 and Revelation 8:9 and 16:3. Scripture shows us clearly that animals have souls, but spirit (pneuma) is never applied to animals.

In your opinion, although they are referred to as distinct and separate, you think they are interchangeable. I think the Holy Spirit knew what he was doing when he used two different words.

If they were the same thing, there would be only one word.

 

It is not a matter of opinion, but rather of good hermeneutics. Words have different meanings. Most words have more than one meaning. I demonstrated that to you in my above post. The best way to determine the meaning of the word is the context.
The soul the sinneth it shall die.
Does this fit your definition of nephesh? I don't think so!
DHK

 

DHK I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you still sin, even as a believer, so are you going to die?