The MEANS of SALVATION...

[Skandelon]

spiritual death- means not spiritually alive and unresponsive in spirit

So, as I stated, if one is unresponsive, in the way a corpse is, then he can't respond negatively or positively. A corpse can't refuse something being offered to it either. Natural man can obviously respond by resisting the Holy Spirit, can't they? How can a corpse do that?

 

[annsni]

So, by that logic you are now unable to sin. Afterall, you are "dead to sin." (Rm 6). Explain that, please.

I am dead to sin - sin no longer controls me. Yes, I sin but it is not in my drive to sin because of the Holy Spirit in me.

 

[Skandelon]

Because it is a spiritual message and people without the Holy Spirit are spiritually discerned. Those who are born of the flesh are flesh and those who are born of the Spirit are spirit. I think a Calvinist and non-Calvinist would agree that without the work of the Holy Spirit the heart of man is lost... I may be wrong about non-cals

The gospel is a work of the Holy Spirit, remember?

pull every bible verse about man and tell me the analysis is good.

Go to the post I just started titled: "

Is man born totally depraved or can they become depraved over time?

I mean that we need God 100% and that is faith we trust and rely on Him, not us.

So in your world God will say, "Well done me," instead of "Well done my good and faithful servant?" And instead of rebuking men for their lack of faith, He will rebuke Himself for not giving them more faith? Right?

 

[Skandelon]

I am dead to sin - sin no longer controls me. Yes, I sin but it is not in my drive to sin because of the Holy Spirit in me.

Oh, sin no longer controls you, like when someone is spiritually dead they are not being directed by the Holy Spirit...sounds similar. Hmmmm

Its not your drive to sin because you have the Holy Spirit, like someone who does have the drive to sin because they are without the Holy Spirit...sounds similar. Hmmmmm

See how that works? You are dead to sin but still able to respond to temptation, just as one who is spiritually dead is able to respond to the Spirit.

 

[Winman]

I am dead to sin - sin no longer controls me. Yes, I sin but it is not in my drive to sin because of the Holy Spirit in me.

No, you are no longer under it legally. Paul explains this.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Paul says here that a married woman is bound by the law to her husband. But if the husband dies she is no longer bound by it and free to marry another man.

This is what it means to be dead to sin. We are not bound by it. It would be as if you personified sin and it was your husband. He died and you are no longer bound to him. It is not that you can't sin, but sin can no longer reign over you and bring the judgement of condemnation upon you.

Tell me, if a man is driving drunk and speeding and runs head on into another car killing himself and the people in the other car, do we prosecute the dead drunk driver? Of course not. The dead are not under the law.

This is what it means to be dead to sin. You are no longer bound and dominated by it, you are free from it as a woman is free to marry again if her husband dies.

 

[zrs6v4]

So, as I stated, if one is unresponsive, in the way a corpse is, then he can't respond negatively or positively. A corpse can't refuse something being offered to it either. Natural man can obviously respond by resisting the Holy Spirit, can't they? How can a corpse do that?

Spiritually dead people can still respond in the flesh. A Physically dead person cant respond in the flesh.

 

[zrs6v4]

The gospel is a work of the Holy Spirit, remember?

So in your world God will say, "Well done me," instead of "Well done my good and faithful servant?" And instead of rebuking men for their lack of faith, He will rebuke Himself for not giving them more faith? Right?

Your right the gospel is a work of God, but there is a further work that must be done. God doesnt just leave His work in the hands of mankind hoping they will do what He wants.

No, in my world God will say "well done good and faithful servant" and I will say that "all the glory goes to you Lord". Don't forget that we are still responsible to trust the Lord, and He doesn't do it for us.

 

[Winman]

spiritual death- means not spiritually alive and unresponsive in spirit
physical death- means not physically alive and unresponsive in flesh

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes."

The comparison is that the same way God must raise people who are physically dead, He must raise people who are spiritually dead.

That is wrong. The scriptures show that the dead can respond to Jesus's voice. Look at the story of the young girl Jesus raised.

Luke 8:49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

Notice when Jesus called to the girl, it says "her spirit came again". It is showing action on the part of her spirit.

What you fail to understand is that death means separation. Her spirit had left her body. The scriptures say this.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When you die, your spirit does not cease to exist or even cease to function. It simply leaves the body. But the dead can hear, see, feel emotions and pain. When Jesus calls, a dead person can hear and respond.

The dead rich man in hell clearly had the ability to see, hear, understand, speak, reason and other abilities. Abraham did not have the ability to raise the rich man to life, but the rich man clearly heard Abraham and held a conversation with him.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Calvinism teaches that the spiritually dead are like a lifeless corpse. This is utterly false and the scriptures show so. They can see, speak, hear, think and all other functions.

 

[Skandelon]

Your right the gospel is a work of God, but there is a further work that must be done.

Chapter and verse please. Remember, it needs to indicate that the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing the truth is insufficient in and of itself...

God doesnt just leave His work in the hands of mankind hoping they will do what He wants.

We all believe that the Holy Spirit indwells His people and these are the ones the HS guides and directs to go and make disciples, right? How is that just leaving His work in the hands of manking hoping they will do it? Come now...

No, in my world God will say "well done good and faithful servant" and I will say that "all the glory goes to you Lord". Don't forget that we are still responsible to trust the Lord, and He doesn't do it for us.

Awww, so you at least get credit for trusting him after your saved, uh? That trust is not given to you by God too? So, what have you done that is good, if God does 100%? Doesn't make much sense for God to say well done, when he did everything and you did nothing...even if you say "you get all the glory" it doesn't negate that he give you praise for something.

 

[Skandelon]

Spiritually dead people can still respond in the flesh. A Physically dead person cant respond in the flesh.

Ok, so men who are not elect are really no more than animals...without souls? What separates the natural man from a dog in your system of thought if indeed they are mere corpses with flesh?

 

[Winman]

Awww, so you at least get credit for trusting him after your saved, uh? That trust is not given to you by God too? So, what have you done that is good, if God does 100%? Doesn't make much sense for God to say well done, when he did everything and you did nothing...even if you say "you get all the glory" it doesn't negate that he give you praise for something.

Yes Skandelon, that is an excellent question. Why would the Lord say "Well done, thou good and faithful servant"?? Does he realize he is stealing from God's glory and sovereignty?

2 Kings 10:30 And the LORD said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

Not only did God credit Jehu and said he did well, he even rewarded him!

Matt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

 

[zrs6v4]

Ok, so men who are not elect are really no more than animals...without souls? What separates the natural man from a dog in your system of thought if indeed they are mere corpses with flesh?

Let me quote Wayne Grudem's way of putting it

"We totally lack spiritual good before God"

"It's not just that some parts of us are sinful and others pure. Rather, every part of our being is affected by sin- our intellects, our emotions and desires, our hearts (the center of our desires and decision-making process), our goals and motives, and even our physical bodies. He lists a few scriptures Rom. 7:18, Titus 1:15, Jer. 17:9, Eph. 4:18

 

[Skandelon]

Yes Skandelon, that is an excellent question. Why would the Lord say "Well done, thou good and faithful servant"?? Does he realize he is stealing from God's glory and sovereignty?

2 Kings 10:30 And the LORD said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

Not only did God credit Jehu and said he did well, he even rewarded him!

Matt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Oh, I think the Lord meant to say, "Well done, me, I made you to be good and faithful and since I made you faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things; enter..." :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Let me quote Wayne Grudem's way of putting it

"We totally lack spiritual good before God"

"It's not just that some parts of us are sinful and others pure. Rather, every part of our being is affected by sin- our intellects, our emotions and desires, our hearts (the center of our desires and decision-making process), our goals and motives, and even our physical bodies. He lists a few scriptures Rom. 7:18, Titus 1:15, Jer. 17:9, Eph. 4:18

There you go. Whenever you question a Calvinist, they will always run to their commentaries written by other Calvinists. It's as if they can't think independently on their own. [offensive remark deleted]

Can't you provide scriptures of your own and explain how they support your position?

 

[Skandelon]

Let me quote Wayne Grudem's way of putting it

"We totally lack spiritual good before God"

"It's not just that some parts of us are sinful and others pure. Rather, every part of our being is affected by sin- our intellects, our emotions and desires, our hearts (the center of our desires and decision-making process), our goals and motives, and even our physical bodies. He lists a few scriptures Rom. 7:18, Titus 1:15, Jer. 17:9, Eph. 4:18

You didn't answer my question. What makes natural man different from a dog in you system of thought if indeed the natural man has a spiritual corpse that cannot do anything?

 

[zrs6v4]

You didn't answer my question. What makes natural man different from a dog in you system of thought if indeed the natural man has a spiritual corpse that cannot do anything?

The natural man acts just like a dog and always returns to his own vomit. It doesn't mean they don't have a soul as JW's say.

 

[zrs6v4]

There you go. Whenever you question a Calvinist, they will always run to their commentaries written by other Calvinists. It's as if they can't think independently on their own. This is a characteristic of cults, they follow a man or men over the scriptures.

Can't you provide scriptures of your own and explain how they support your position?

What a foolish thing to do.... how dare me seek some advice from a brother

 

[Skandelon]

The natural man acts just like a dog and always returns to his own vomit. It doesn't mean they don't have a soul as JW's say.

But if that soul, is as you say..."a corpse," then by all practical purposes they are no different from dogs, now are they?

 

[zrs6v4]

Oh, I think the Lord meant to say, "Well done, me, I made you to be good and faithful and since I made you faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things; enter..." :thumbs:

Ok fair enough, you can go on your way and think of you as receiving praise for good works and I will go ahead and continue to praise God fully for my good works... hehe :wavey:

 

[Skandelon]

actually dogs would be better off...at least they don't have to spend eternity in torment for being born in their condition...