You may want to sit down.
But, seriously, I am looking for an answer to this too. Either from TCassidy or Mr. Cognitive Dissonance.
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The Mediatorial Kingdom
- Thread starter Covenanter
- Start date
You may want to sit down.
But, seriously, I am looking for an answer to this too. Either from TCassidy or Mr. Cognitive Dissonance.
prophecy70 wrote:
Luke 17:20
Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,
Hey, prophecy expert, why didn't you summarize from vs. 20 to the end of the chapter? (Get the context!)
Luke 17:20
Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,
Hey, prophecy expert, why didn't you summarize from vs. 20 to the end of the chapter? (Get the context!)
I just hope and pray you will listen.
Luke 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when God’s Kingdom would come, he answered them, “God’s Kingdom doesn’t come with observation."
First, who is He talking to. Hint: Pharisees - unbelievers.
Second, He says with observation - With scrupulous and attentive looking for it, or with such an appearance so as to “attract” observation - that is, with pomp, majesty, splendor, which is what the Pharisees were all about, empty pomp, splendor, formalism.
Now the immediate following context.
Luke 17:21 neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, God’s Kingdom is within you.”
He uses their own unbelief against them. They say the Kingdom will come with great pomp and ceremony, but He says "No, nobody will say look, here, or look there" pointing to a great pompous religious activity.
He then corrects their error. "God's Kingdom is within you."
The Greek word translated "within you" is εντος. (Within you or Among you.)
There are two possible interpretations.
1. The reign of God is “within you, "in the heart.” It does not come with pomp and splendor, like the reign of earthy kings, who can only control the external actions of their subjects, but it reigns in the heart by the law of God; it sets up its dominion over the will, and brings every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
Or
2. It may mean the Kingdom is “now among you.” The Messiah has come. The Kingdom is present in the Person of the King. Most bible scholars at this time lean to this interpretation.
I think it could be either but lean towards the second.
prophecy70
Active Member
22And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
There are some, who take this as the End of the Old covenant and the coming of the kingdom, which is the new covenant. Those who do not split the discourse into two parts.
And Some who see the final Judgment day here.
Tell me in YOUR contextual explanation is this before or after a "future millennium"?
And then find me the Contextual support of a Physical Literal Millennium where Christ sits on an earthy throne reigning with a million souls.
prophecy70
Active Member
I do listen to everything, Even if I do not agree. especially when you present it like this.
I agree with what you just said 100%
the only difference is, I just do not see the need nor support for a future literal millennium where he has to sit on a earthy throne.
I believe he is fulfilling the prophecy now.
Tcassidy said:
I note you assert with those two definitions that the Mediatorial Kingdom requires the Mediator to be present -
During is earthly ministry ;
and in the future, during the millennium..
NOT during the present Gospel age.
TCassidy said:
That, I hope , we would all agree.
TCassidy said:
@TCassidy you appear to have acquired strange doctrines about the role of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Mediatorial Kingdom. Doctrines that reject New Covenant Scripture:
Heb. 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Rev. 1:4 John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father – to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Rev. 1:4 John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father – to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Notice the present tenses in those references:
He is the Mediator of the new covenant
Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
There can be no argument. Jesus is King & Mediator in the present Gospel age. To deny that is to deny the Gospel.
And, in the resurrection when the Lord Jesus Christ is with us in glory, will we need a mediator? Surely his priestly work of redemption was finished at Calvary, we are presently living under the New Covenant in his present Kingdom:
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
Any doctrine of a/the Mediatorial Kingdom MUST focus on Jesus' present reign & mediatorial work in the present Gospel age, NOT some supposed future millennial kingdom.
If I may respond, I don't see where a definition of "a mediatorial kingdom" has to be analogous with the doctrine of Christ as our Mediator.
Surely we could plot out a Venn diagram and see differences between the Judges time as mediators and Christ's, for example. It is not a slight to our Savior or denial of His role as mediator to explore this.
That is not the question under discussion.
Look at TC's definitions - he specifically excludes the present Gospel age from Christ's Mediatorial Kingdom.
Then look at the Scriptures relating to Christ our New Covenant Mediator.
This is why I have not participated in this thread. You just can't seem to bring yourself to tell the truth.
This is why I have not participated in this thread. You just can't seem to bring yourself to tell the truth.
Have you read your own posts? Are they an accurate & full statement of your belief or the mediatorial kingdom doctrine?
TCassidy said:
And did you see mine?
Ian said:
Is there any biblical authority to say the times of the gentiles began in Babylonian times?
As far as I can ascertain this teaching began in the 19th century. It is based on the seven times that passed over Nebuchadnezzar, Seven times being 2520 days or 2520 years which would run out in the 20th century. (H Grattan Guinness and others.)
As far as I can ascertain this teaching began in the 19th century. It is based on the seven times that passed over Nebuchadnezzar, Seven times being 2520 days or 2520 years which would run out in the 20th century. (H Grattan Guinness and others.)
So, you want me to explain a 6 credit hour course from a 550 page textbook in one little post?
This is exactly why I think you have no credibility at all regarding the bible or theology. You seem to operate on a Readers Digest Condensed Version of bible and theology. And even then you have torn out 90% of the pages!
Uh, the Times of the Gentiles has nothing to do with the above. It is right out of Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
It began when Israel/Judah was dominated by the gentile nations and will only end with the consummation of the ages, when Israel will be ruled by her Messiah, and not dominated by the gentile nations any more.
Can this:
Luke 17:21 neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, God’s Kingdom is within you.”
be understood as this:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
That the kingdom of God can be, of flesh born man, if he also is born, of Spirit?
Ian said:
All I wanted was a simple "Yes" or "No." I assume a reasonable degree of intelligence of contributors, that generally they write what they mean. I know I do.So, you want me to explain a 6 credit hour course from a 550 page textbook in one little post?
This is exactly why I think you have no credibility at all regarding the bible or theology. You seem to operate on a Readers Digest Condensed Version of bible and theology. And even then you have torn out 90% of the pages!
Often, of course, there are implications & questions arising about what is written, which is why we are discussing these things on the forum.
You, in two posts stated what the Mediatorial Kingdom was, & gave a link. Your posts excluded the Gospel age from the Mediatorial Kingdom.
So I questioned your teaching as false -
I have understood that in the present Gospel age there is a good degree of unity regarding the the Gospel & the ministry of Christ, & of the Holy Spirit regardless of our views on eschatolgy.Ian said:
Essex is denying that unity to the extent that Christ's office as king & mediator for his redeemed people is in abeyance at present, & will only apply in a future millennial kingdom when he is reigning in person.
That is NOT Scriptural doctrine.
Yes but it does not say when it began. There were times before the Romans came that the Israel had no gentiles ruling over them such as the Macabees and later. the high priests took the title of king and there was one queen. I am not sure that they had gentiles ruling over them until Pompey.
Uh, after Babylon/Medio-Persia came Alexander, followed by the Ptolemy dynasty of Egypt, and the Seleucid dynasty of Babylon. The Maccabees and later the Hasmoneans were able to re-establish Temple worship, but there was no properly consecrated priesthood nor a King. The High Priests did most of the governing. And most of them, some of whom were called "King" were Parthian puppets. They were followed by the Herods, who were Roman puppets.
Mathias was high priest and his sons cleaned the temple and established temple worship exactly three years after Antochus defiled it. They were then free for a short time.
prophecy70
Active Member
*Grabs popcorn*