The "Message" Bible ???

Ransom stated:

What a comical demand. Your "scholarship" on this thread has been nothing but guilt by association based on some superficial word similarities, and calling for an investigation into everything even remotely associated with The Message.


S&T:

Let's take a closer look at this "remote association" that you keep speaking of:

Some excerpts from Billy Grahm's endorsement :

"The Message is one of the most dynamic recent versions of the New Testament that I have seen ... Children can easily understand it, and veteran Bible readers will see Christ's words in a fresh light." In fact, Graham even authorized a special edition of The Message to be distributed by his Evangelistic Association -- it comes with "... many explanations that I've written to help you understand what the New Testament says."

also:

NavPress worked with the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association in
providing approximately 500,000 copies of The Message. The Salvation Army asked
NavPress to partner with them in distributing more than 10,000 copies
of The Message of Hope at Ground Zero in New York City. "


Once again, it would behoove you to do your research before making these statements. Also, I would like to request that you please conduct yourself with the same behavior that you request from the members of your own forum:

"PERSONAL RESPECT - You must maintain courtesy and respect for others at ALL TIMES! Those who will not cooperate and be respectful on this board will be prohibited from posting."

Thank you.

 

quote:

I hereby grant ScottEmerson the right to
speak on my behalf in //The "Message" Bible ???// Topic.

Further, I validate that there is NO FAULT
in the writings of ScottEmerson on pages 6
thru 8. 2 thumbs up
for ScottEmerson!

S&T:

Professed Christians hunting in "packs" is so disheartening. Just another sign of the times.

 

Ransom stated:

. . . prove absolutely nothing.

S&T:

Denial is not a river in Egypt. Maybe I need to get beamed up "Scotty". ...eh?

 

Scott stated:

Oh, I don't know. It seems that the Bible says to go together in confronting error in the Church. We're doing just that.

S&T:
Does that mean that you will be going to local churches and showing them the error in the message, as well as telling your students that you have made a mistake in using it to try and teach them the Word of God?

 

Back to scholarship:

Scott;

Please give me textual evidence for the bolded word choices.

Here is one that is clear as mud:

Matthew 21 verse ?

Whoever stumbles on the Stone gets shattered; whoever the Stone falls on gets smashed.

S&T:

Since when is Christ a stumbling block?


Matthew 9

I am after mercy, not religion.


Matthew 10:

If they call me, the Master,'Dungface', what can the workers expect?


Matthew 17

What would you think if I built three memorials here on the mountain- one for you, one for Moses, one for Elijah?

 

Scott:

Keep 'em coming - I haven't a problem with any of these yet, and I doubt that anyone else here would either.

S&T:

One small problem.You did not present textual evidence, you presented the opinions of men. As far as the stumbling block explanation, yes Jesus was a stumbling block to unbelieving Judah, but not to believers.

 

Ransom stated:

Huh huh huh. You're a laff riot.

S&T:

In case you didn't notice, I was intentionally trying to lighten things up a bit. I spent a lot of time in your area of Canada playing and coaching hockey. The Canadian people, for the most part, are usually quite polite. On the ice, it was rare to ever get a "cheap shot" from a Canadian player. If asked they would proudly tell you "It's not the Canadian way".Please consider this in our future discussions, because thus far, all I have seen is condescension. Let's stick with scholarship.

 

From a article critiqing the message:

Peterson's New Testament, published in 1993, sold 2.5 million copies, and his other "Message products" -- more than 20 in all -- have sold 4.5 million.

In addition to good sales, Peterson's work has enjoyed gentle treatment from other biblical scholars.

Vern Poythress, a New Testament professor at Westminister Theological Seminary in Glenside, Pa., says he and fellow conservatives may quibble with many of Peterson's renderings but have leveled few attacks because "The Message" isn't a Bible and isn't presented as such.

and:

He says Peterson's work "is at the far end of the spectrum, not only in paraphrasing but cultural updating."


S&T:

I found this quote to be of interest:

"The Message" isn't a Bible and isn't presented as such.

S&T:

Let's recap what we have learned so far:

1] The book says The Message BIBLE on the cover

2] It is sold in Christian book stores in the BIBLE section

3] Pastors preach to their congregations using this BIBLE as the word of God

4] Many people are using this as their primary translation of the BIBLE, are teaching others using it, and some people even own multiple copies.

 

Scott:

I gave you exact textual support for translation of Beelzebub as "Dungface," as it is quite exactly what the word Beelzebub means.

S&T:

Greek for 954
Beelzeboul {beh-el-zeb-ool'}

TDNT - 1:605,104
of Aramaic origin [by parody on 01176]

Part of Speech
n pr m

Outline of Biblical Usage

Beelzebub = "lord of the house"

1) a name of Satan, the prince of evil spirits


So I checked the Eastern and Western dialect to see any differences of theAramaic:


(Eastern) B'aB,EeLZB,uOB,
(Western) B'aB,EeLZB,uOB,

Word:
Bwbzl9bb

Lexeme:
Bwbzl9b

Root:
Bwbzl9b

And then refered to Jewish sources:

Name of a demon mentioned in the New Testament as chief of the demons (Matt. xii. 24-27; Mark iii. 22; Luke xi. 15-18). When the Pharisees heard (of the cures performed by Jesus), they said: "This man doth not cast out demons but by Beelzebul, the prince of the demons"; whereupon Jesus answered: "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? But if I cast out demons by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." On another occasion Jesus said to his disciples: "If they have called the master of the house [that is, himself] Beelzebub, how much more (shall they so call) them of his household" [that is, the disciples] (Matt. x. 25). The name "Beelzebub," written also "Beelzebul," which occurs nowhere else in Jewish literature, is a variant form of "Baal Zebub," the god of E?ron, whose oracle King Ahaziah consulted during his illness, provoking thereby the wrath of God (II Kings i. 2-16); the name is commonly explained after the Septuagint and Josephus, "Ant." ix. 2, § 1, as the "Lord of Flies" (see Baal-zebub). Plagues being often ascribed to the influence of flies (Ex. xxiii. 28; Eccl. x. 1; Pliny, "Historia Naturalis," x. 28, 75; Pausanias," Description of Greece," v. 14, 1; Aelian, "Natura Animalium," v. 17, xi. 8; Usener, "Götternamen," p. 260), the god who dispelled flies (Apollo Apomyios) probably retained his popularity long after he had ceased to be an object of worship. In fact, the fly was regarded by the Jews in particular as more or less impure and demonic. "The evil spirit ["ye?er ha-ra'"] lies like a fly at the doors of the human heart," says Rab, with reference to "the flies of death" in Eccl. x. 1 (Ber. 61a and Targ. Yer. to the passage). "A fly, being an impure thing, was never seen in the slaughterhouse of the Temple" (Abot v. 8), nor did one cross the table of Elisha; which fact, according to Rab, gave proof to the Shunammite woman that he was "a holy man" (II Kings iv. 9; Ber. 10b). The devil in German folk-lore also appears in the shape of a fly (Simrock, "Deutsche Mythologie," 1874, pp. 95, 479).

Geiger ("Urschrift," p. 53) thinks that Baal Zebub, in his capacity as god of the hated Philistines, became the representative of the heathen power and consequently the arch-enemy, the foe par excellence, and therefore the name "Baal debaba" ("debaba" being the Aramaic form corresponding to Hebrew "Zebub") acquired the meaning of "hostility," the verb with the sense of "hostile action" being derived from it. But neither this opinion nor a similar one expressed by Döderlein and Storr, and revived in Riehm's "Realwörterbuch," seems acceptable, as "Beel debaba" is the ordinary Aramean word for "calumniator." (Brockelmann, "Lex Syriæ.")

What renders the name still more problematic is the form "Beelzebul," which the older manuscripts present, and which has given rise to a number of other conjectures, among them the following: (1)It has been suggested that the appellations Beelzebub and Baal Zebub are corrupt forms of what was originally "Baal Zebul" (Baal of the heavenly mansion, , Movers, in "Journal Asiatique," 1878, pp. 220-225), and afterward "Baal of the nether world." (2) The word "Zebul" (from "zebel," dung) is a cacophonic corruption of "Zebub," in order to give the name the meaning of "god of the dung." It is more likely that the name "Beelzebul" is a dialectic variation of "Beelzebub," as "Beliar" is of "Belial"; Jerome read and translated the name as "dominus muscarum" (lord of flies).

 

Scott:

Even your own source mentions "God of dung." One merely type in Beelzebub and dung to see the references for this.

S&T:

Only as a secondary, partially errant choice.Now demonstrate linguistically how face came about. Peterson is referring to our Lord as sh&#face. Doesn't this trouble you?

 

Scott,

So how did face come about?

From the message:

Matthew 22

God says, 'I am- not was -the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob.'

S&T:

Let's look at how God defined who He is to Moses in Exodus 3:14 from the Hebrew Masoretic text:

amar Elohiym Mosheh hayah hayah amar amar ben Yisra'el shalach

Lets look at this in the context of a fairly literal translation:

Come, therefore, I will send you to Pharaoh, and you shall free My people, the Israelites, from Egypt. But Moses said to Elohim, Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and free the Israelites from Egypt? And He said, I will be with you; that shall be your sign that it was I who sent you. And when you have freed the people from Egypt, you shall worship Elohim at this mountain. Moses said to Elohim, When I come to the Israelites and say to them The Elohim of your fathers has sent me to you, and they ask me, What is His name? what shall I say to them? And Elohim said to Moses, Ehyeh [Asher]
Ehyeh. [I Am That I Am ; I Am Who I Am ; I Will Be What I Will Be;] He continued, Thus shall you say to the Israelites, Ehyeh (I Am or I Will Be.) sent me to you. And Elohim said further to Moses, Thus shall you speak to the Israelites: YHWH the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you: This shall be My name forever, This My appellation for all eternity.


S&T:

Since God is eternal, He was, is, and will be. Any opinions Scott?