Calvinism in full is the clear reading of the text that you deny with every post.
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The message of reconciliation
- Thread starter Barry Johnson
- Start date
Of course it is. Only elect believers are justified.
Unbelievers are never justified, have no peace, devoid of the Holy Spirit,go into second death.
Roman's 3:23.....all sinned, all died spiritually in Adam.
This is not even a legitimate question.
This suggests to me a disingenuous spirit, not really desiring an answer.
If the day comes when you want truthful answers, I and other Cals would be glad to help.
It does not look like today is that day however.
Now this assessment seems true of Calvinists, and so we have yet another example of a disparaging charge against others that actually describes the ones making the charge.
What is the message of reconciliation? The gospel of Christ!!
Everyone needs to be reconciled to God because we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)
Christ died as a ransom for all, so Christ provides your means of reconciliation.
We as ambassadors of Christ beg you, "Be reconciled to God."
For God loved the world in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son so that everyone believing into Christ will not perish but have eternal life.
You need not to just believe facts about Jesus, but you must trust Him fully and love Him with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.
Where does the Bible say only the elect will be saved? I don't believe in Calvinism. Are you saying I have no peace, and am devoid of the holy Spirit?
MB
The Bible never says we die in Adam. It says ;
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Why do you add your comments to a verse instead of quoting it properly.
MB
Let's quote it properly. Shall we?
Romans 3:19-31 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
It still does not say that we sin in Adam.
MB
But it does if you understand the passage.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are fo4 This passage describes the horrible ethical, intellectual, spiritual, moral and social history of mankind abandoned by God to its own sinful tendencies and passions. This has great epistemological implications Kai. kaqw.j ouvk evdoki,masan to.n qeo.n e;cein evn evpignw,sei( pare,dwken auvtou.j o` qeo.j eivj avdo,kimon nou/n, The terms (evdoki,masan... avdo,kimon) connote “disapproved” [after testing, rejected] or “reprobated” [Latin]. “being filled” is to be construed with each of the following: “all [kinds or forms of] unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness...” “Full of” is to be construed with each of the following: [being filled to the point of overflowing or bursting with] “envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity...” oi{tine" toV dikaivwma tou' qeou' ejpignovnte". They are such ones who [rel. pron., stressing character] as the judgment of God [emph. pos.] fully comprehending...” evpignw,sij denotes full or adequate knowledge. They are fully aware of Divine judgment upon their actions. 395 pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/,
“For all sinned [aor., sinned in Adam], and are continually coming short [pres., denoting continuous action] of the glory of God.” 396 “...all have sinned.” (pa,ntej h[marton). The aor. tense signifies an event, “all sinned [in Adam].” This refers to original sin, not subsequent or personal sins. 397 (u`phkou,sate de. evk kardi,aj eivj o]n paredo,qhte tu,pon didach/j) Lit: “...[that] to which you were handed over [emph. pos.] pattern of teaching...” Believers have been pressed—reshaped, conformed to, molded—into the Gospel paolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1
Calvinism, Arminianism pg. 110
2 Corinthians 5
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
God is making an appeal through the Christian, Ambassador of Jesus Christ, Begging on behalf of Jesus that we reconcile to God.
Any Calvinist with a lick of common sense is not going to issue an official BEGGING FROM JESUS for a person to reconcile with God.
How many times you walk up to a complete stranger and say Jesus Christ is BEGGING YOU to reconcile with God?
No, no, no. Calvinist common sense is God doesn't want you to beg to everybody let alone have super sovereign GOD begging folks to reconcile.
COMMON sense is Calvinist ambassadors would be BEGGIN GOD to change the heart of his possible elect.
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
God is making an appeal through the Christian, Ambassador of Jesus Christ, Begging on behalf of Jesus that we reconcile to God.
Any Calvinist with a lick of common sense is not going to issue an official BEGGING FROM JESUS for a person to reconcile with God.
How many times you walk up to a complete stranger and say Jesus Christ is BEGGING YOU to reconcile with God?
No, no, no. Calvinist common sense is God doesn't want you to beg to everybody let alone have super sovereign GOD begging folks to reconcile.
COMMON sense is Calvinist ambassadors would be BEGGIN GOD to change the heart of his possible elect.
You truly are clueless regarding the Supremacy of God in reconciliation.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
1 cor 2.14 is talking about a saved but carnal / fleshy believer. This is evident as no lost people are in view in and around those verses . Its not about anyone not being unable to believe the gospel . its about not being able to understand the ' things 'of the spirit as Paul can speak amoung the mature . 1 cor 2.6 makes painfully clear.
We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought
Asv)You are not reading the passage with understanding. The natural man is under the dominion of the flesh,he cannot understand.1 cor 2.14 is talking about a saved but carnal / fleshy believer. This is evident as no lost people are in view in and around those verses . Its not about anyone not being unable to believe the gospel . its about not being able to understand the ' things 'of the spirit as Paul can speak amoung the mature . 1 cor 2.6 makes painfully clear.
We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought
If you cannot read this passage correctly, or you misread Rom5,you will never grasp truth
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Your not explaining the verses around verse 14 ? your not responding to what I just said with those verses ? simply begging the question " the Natural man ' is a man who is not a Christian and cannot believe the Gospel when presented to him . You've got a ' buzz phrase ' that gets thrown around without looking at what Paul is saying . This same fleshy man is extended into chapter 3 where these fleshy believers are unable to understand the things of the spirit . The thing s Paul speaks ( wisdom) among the ' full grown ' . I dont think you know what Paul is trying to say to these corinthians? your not expounding on the verses . Your doing eisegesis to the text.
You are mistaken on the total passage.I only answer when someone wants an answer. Your continued failure to interact with what is offered demonstrates that you are not looking for a sincere answer.
I also do not respond to such claims as "begging the question".
These claims of debate fallacies are used to avoid the scriptures offered.
It's not the scriptures them selves. It's that you keep adding your Calvinism to the scriptures. Like "all sinned in Adam" scripture does not say that but you insist that it does if we understand it. There is nothing wrong with my understanding. It's you who does not understand because you cannot see past your Calvinism. You tend to imagine what clearly isn't there. This is what robs you of the truth.
MB
Romans 5:1-21 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old selfwas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Context...
Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old selfwas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Context...
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Then please go through the verses and explain why you think " the natural man ' is a unbeliever please . Not just stating the words from that one verse, means something ,because of doctrine or that one verse is teaching something on its own .
MB,
I am someone who was once a Calvinist. I studied theology at a graduate level, taught Calvinism (when teaching theology), and held that soteriological position for a long time. Calvinism carries with it a set of presuppositions that affects how sermons are preached (depending on topic) and Scripture is interpreted. Often Calvinism does result in eisegesis. I left Calvinism not because I found error in what it stated but I became aware of error in what it presupposed (the philosophy behind Calvinism, the "worldview", was unjustifiable). That small error in what Calvinism assumes is magnified throughout the interpretive process.
I say this to agree with you that Calvinism does, in some areas, rob from the truth. But a Calvinist will never be able to identify the "fly in the ointment" simply by exploring Scripture because the "fly" is extrabiblical (the initial error is philosophical and extrabiblical).
You waste your time arguing Calvinism with a Calvinist because adherents of the position read the theory into Scripture without recognizing the action. I was the same way. What has to change is the presuppositions, the philosophies at the base of Calvinism as that is what separates the "camp" from others.
This type of "blindness" is not unique to Calvinism. I'm just focusing on Calvinism as that is the focus here.
Sometimes it is best to just let it go. Narrative, once accepted, is extremely difficult to overcome. That's just the way people are.