The Millions Who Never Had a Choice

[thatbrian]

The Arminians on this board seems to have difficulty seeing the theological reality, implications, and problems of their position.

Thanks, RT.

I'm trying to press the logical implications of their beliefs. I certainly know that there are implications of what I believe.

I don't mind debating here all day long, but I want to debate people who are intellectually honest. I want to debate this with people who own their position, and who fully understand mine. And, I want to do all that in a way that avoids name calling and other such nonsense. Call me a dreamer. . .

 

[InTheLight]

God's Word has not been present throughout many millions of people's lives. They lived and died without ever hearing God's Word.

While I will allow for these dreams and visions being from God, we are talking about a handful of people, as compared with the world's population (living and dead) who have had these dreams.

Not a handful.

"I see many, many Arabic-speaking people turning to Christ, accepting Him as Lord and Savior,” said Nizar Shaheen, host of Light for the Nations, a Christian program seen throughout the Muslim world. "It's happening all over the Arab world. It's happening in North Africa. It's happening in the Middle East. It's happening in the Gulf countries. It's happening in Europe and Canada and the United States-in the Arabic-speaking world. Everywhere, people are accepting Jesus."
http://www1.cbn.com/onlinediscipleship/visions-of-jesus-stir-muslim-hearts

“The number of Isa dreams has seemed to grow tremendously since 2000, and in 2005 it seems to have kicked into another gear,” Costenbader said. “There has been an explosion of testimonies on the Web in the past two years about people encountering Jesus in dreams and subsequently becoming followers of Jesus.”
http://www.wnd.com/2014/11/rising-number-of-muslims-reporting-dreams-about-jesus/

Also, would you honestly allow a Calvinist to defend his doctrine by saying that he had dreams and visions?

Probably not any Calvinist doctrine, but I would allow for salvation. I know of no Calvinists that claim to have been enabled to believe by dreams. Yet here we have thousands and thousands of Muslims claiming it. Is this not a prime example of irresistible grace?

I find it highly ironic that Calvinists are typically skeptics when it comes to the issue of Muslims having dreams about Jesus. After all, we are told umpteen times about God's sovereignty, about how God can do whatever he pleases, the potter and the clay, yada, yada, yada, yet then hear excuses about how some things could never happen.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/le...per-suspicious-of-muslim-dreams-of-jesus.html

 

[InTheLight]

Let me try to put a finer point on this.

Many people on BB, in fact, many in the church today, think that man's "free will" is the limiting factor, while we Calvinists say that God's will/ choice is the limiting factor ("I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy").

How does a non-Calvist reconcile that fact that over a billion people have had no choice?

What's there to reconcile? It's a fact of life.

 

[InTheLight]

Their position is better stated that God wants to save all people, but He can't because He is limited by human will. Either way, Arminianism makes God out to be some sort of impotent God.

Please post a link to someone that holds to this belief. Anyone. Ever.

Speaking of an impotent God, that would be the Calvinist's God that won't allow for Muslims to have dreams that leads them to Christ.

 

[Revmitchell]

If God simply provided a way of salvation in Christ's death, if salvation is there for the taking, but you must choose it to gain its benefits, then what about the millions and millions of people who have lived and died throughout history who never heard the gospel or even the name of Jesus?

Prove that anyone has died and never heard the gospel.

 

[Rippon]

Prove that anyone has died and never heard the gospel.

You're denying the obvious.

 

[thatbrian]

Prove that anyone has died and never heard the gospel.

I'm only interested in serious and intellectually honest debate.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm only interested in serious and intellectually honest debate.

And there is that good old fashion Calvinist arrogance.

 

[Revmitchell]

I think it is the funniest thing to hear Arminians claim to not be Arminians. So Calvinists are proud to be Calvinists while Arminians are ashamed of it. That tells a lot about the Arminian position. However, in their defense, if I were an Arminian I'd be ashamed of it too.

Or those who deny the man made and unscriptural label do not feel the need to take on the man made systematic thelogy of Calvinists.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I think it is the funniest thing to hear Arminians claim to not be Arminians. So Calvinists are proud to be Calvinists while Arminians are ashamed of it. That tells a lot about the Arminian position. However, in their defense, if I were an Arminian I'd be ashamed of it too.

Laugh Roflmao Laugh Roflmao

I'm only interested in serious and intellectually honest debate.

With only 109 posts since 2008 it looks as if you're not finding much of that here, brother, and it still eludes you.

Ad hominem seems plentiful though. Great OP by the way.

 

[thatbrian]

Ad hominem attacks are a last resort of one who has no defense for his position.

Is there someone who can honestly answer my question without calling me names?

 

[thatbrian]

Laugh Roflmao Laugh Roflmao


With only 109 posts since 2008 it looks as if you're not finding much of that here, brother, and it still eludes you.

Ad hominem seems plentiful though. Great OP by the way.

You are correct. I keep coming back periodically to see if things have changed, but it might just prove that I'm insane (doing the same thing but expecting a different result).

 

[InTheLight]

Ad hominem attacks are a last resort of one who has no defense for his position.

Is there someone who can honestly answer my question without calling me names?

I guess you didn't like my answers. They were straight forward, on point, and not ad hominem.

 

[Iconoclast]

Let me try to put a finer point on this.

Many people on BB, in fact, many in the church today, think that man's "free will" is the limiting factor, while we Calvinists say that God's will/ choice is the limiting factor ("I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy").

How does a non-Calvist reconcile that fact that over a billion people have had no choice?

By make believe????

 

[Iconoclast]

And there is that good old fashion Calvinist arrogance.

And quite shockingly here is RM saying that Calvinists are arrogant what a surprise!!! Who could have seen that one coming ???lol

 

[robustheologian]

Or those who deny the man made and unscriptural label do not feel the need to take on the man made systematic thelogy of Calvinists.

Huh?? Spelling mistakes aside...this isn't even a complete sentence.

 

[robustheologian]

Please post a link to someone that holds to this belief. Anyone. Ever.

Link?? I'm sorry I don't get my information or theology from the Internet but I can give you a book.
William Burt Pope's Compendium of Christian Theology

 

[thatbrian]

I guess you didn't like my answers. They were straight forward, on point, and not ad hominem.

I appreciate your answers. They were just as you say. You answered and with a gracious spirit. I respect that, especially around here.

The trouble is, they were not rooted in scripture. Also, you don't seem to grasp the scale of this. Even if 10,000 Muslims claim to have dreams, that is a drop in the ocean compared to all of the people who have lived and died not hearing of Christ.

The is indeed something to reconcile, if you hold to an Arminian or "Freewill" position. There is an inconsistency that is huge. You claim that God gives people free will and that people can either choose Christ or not. The trouble is, these people have no choice, because they don't have the information. Generations after generations, millions and billions lived and died without hearing the gospel.

What you have been slow to see in my pushing of this point is that Arminians (or people who hold to similar beliefs) get incensed over the fact that we Calvinists accept and promote: God chooses some and not others. But, what you/they fail to understand is that your position has the exact same issue.

By placing people in time and place, God allowed some to hear the gospel while also essentially preventing untold millions for hearing the gospel.

 

[thatbrian]

I think it is the funniest thing to hear Arminians claim to not be Arminians. So Calvinists are proud to be Calvinists while Arminians are ashamed of it. That tells a lot about the Arminian position. However, in their defense, if I were an Arminian I'd be ashamed of it too.

It is funny that people don't claim their position, but I think that I can see why.

To free will folks man's autonomy is held as highest importance, so falling in line with anything of structure would be the greatest evil. This is why the same people have distain for any type of liturgy in a worship service, and they would be up in arms if someone prayed a (previously) written prayer.

 

[InTheLight]

The trouble is, they were not rooted in scripture. Also, you don't seem to grasp the scale of this.

I quoted Isaiah 55:11.

The is indeed something to reconcile, if you hold to an Arminian or "Freewill" position. There is an inconsistency that is huge. You claim that God gives people free will and that people can either choose Christ or not. The trouble is, these people have no choice, because they don't have the information. Generations after generations, millions and billions lived and died without hearing the gospel.

Yes, it's awful that so many people have perished. I'm sorry but I'm not seeing an inconsistency. I'm seeing a tragedy.

You seem to be saying that belief in free will is unfair because so many people don't get the chance to choose because they haven't heard the gospel. Is that it?

What you have been slow to see in my pushing of this point is that Arminians (or people who hold to similar beliefs) get incensed over the fact that we Calvinists accept and promote: God chooses some and not others.

Incensed? I don't get incensed because someone holds erroneous theologies. Pity would be a more apt description.

But, what you/they fail to understand is that your position has the exact same issue.

By placing people in time and place, God allowed some to hear the gospel while also essentially preventing untold millions for hearing the gospel.

My position is not the same issue as the Calvinist belief that God condemned people to Hell from before the foundation of the world. People are condemned in my belief system because they are sinners and have rejected the gospel or never heard of it. In your system God doesn't save people because He doesn't feel like it.

Why does the Calvinist God prevent millions from hearing the gospel? Are they all part of the condemned from before the foundation of the world crowd?