The Millions Who Never Had a Choice

[InTheLight]

Jesus ministry was filled with figurative scenarios and teachings showing what the Kingdom is like, how one sees it, enters it, what the truly regenerate look like in it, the false and much more.

The story of Lazarus is not a figurative story lesson. It is a literal picture of Jesus' power over death via the resurrection.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

This statement in verses 25-26 is not figurative, it is not a parable, it is not symbolic.

Sovereign Grace nailed the story of Lazarus as this figuratively represents those dead in sin. Many well known commentators agree as well.

I'm sorry, but no. Lazarus was sick and Jesus ALLOWED Lazarus to die. So you're saying Jesus allowed Lazarus to fall into the state of being "dead in sins". Don't think so.

As to the other commentators that is called the appeal to majority fallacy. Many well known commentators can be wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Okay Brothers, we are straying from the OP just a bit.

Let us get back on track. Agree?

 

[InTheLight]

Okay Brothers, we are straying from the OP just a bit.

Yes, I'm shocked, shocked that Cal/Arm debates get off topic! LOL!

Let us get back on track. Agree?

I guess I've said all I can say. Yes there are millions that haven't heard the gospel. It's a tragedy. But not hearing the gospel does not mean free will is negated, it means that they haven't heard the gospel.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

. Regeneration is being born again, is having your mind renewed, becoming a new creature, the transformation of your spirit, etc. It is not being brought back to life, that is the definition of resurrection.

Brother,

Let me ask you this, when one is born into this world, do they play role in their birth or is it a result solely of their parents doing? What about a creation, did Adam play a role in God creating him? And so it is in regeneration, we play no role.

As far as it your contention that being born again is not being bought back to life from the dead, you contradict three scriptures, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" (Ephesians 2:1), "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved" (Ephesians 2:5) and "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened" (Colossians 2:13). Who does those quickening in all these verses? God and God alone. Further, the Greek word for quickened in both Colossians 2:13 and Ephesians 2:5 is the verb "suzóopoieó:" which according to Strong's Greek Concordance means, "I make alive together with" (see here http://biblehub.com/greek/4806.htm ) Now, you tell me how you can make something alive that is not first dead?

Finally, Jesus said "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will" (John 5:1) and "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." (John 5:25). He must have been talking about sinners being born again, not the dead being raised upon his return as he said the hour "now is".

Finally, in the new birth, you do error in your belief that somehow a nature is changed, Jesus said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63) and Paul said after he was born again, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Romans 7:18). Before the new birth, there is the flesh only, after the new birth there is the flesh and the new inner man, scripture knows nothing of a changed nature.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, I'm shocked, shocked that Cal/Arm debates get off topic! LOL!



I guess I've said all I can say. Yes there are millions that haven't heard the gospel. It's a tragedy. But not hearing the gospel does not mean free will is negated, it means that they haven't heard the gospel.

But here is where the tension betwixt both camps start. If they did not hear the gospel, how could they be saved? God saves, yes. But He does so via the gospel, as affirmed by Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:21, Eph. 1:13. So if they died without hearing the gospel, they won't get a pass. I am not saying you advocate that notion, InTheLight. Those who perish without the Law, perish without the Law. Why? They have the Law written upon their hearts, knowing it is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, &c. So they sin when they violate their conscience, those laws written upon their hearts.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I'm sorry, but no. Lazarus was sick and Jesus ALLOWED Lazarus to die. So you're saying Jesus allowed Lazarus to fall into the state of being "dead in sins". Don't think so.

As to the other commentators that is called the appeal to majority fallacy. Many well known commentators can be wrong.

People are dead in sins prior to natural death, I'm sure you agree with this.

In my prior post you dismissed and deleted the final statement of mine, so here it is in its entirety:

Jesus ministry was filled with figurative scenarios and teachings showing what the Kingdom is like, how one sees it, enters it, what the truly regenerate look like in it, the false and much more.

Sovereign Grace nailed the story of Lazarus as this figuratively represents those dead in sin. Many well known commentators agree as well.

But the other healing's of Christ of the blind, lame, deaf, mute, paralyzed, dead, lepers show forth the same truth. You've also mentioned the given of His power over death exemplified in the account, but this truth does not undo what Sovereign Grace shared, so it is not an either or (as if only what you said is correct and proves him wrong and vice versa). Therefore Jesus accomplished more than just declaration of His power of resurrection, and we as believers only can believe via that same power (Eph. 1:19) not via some innate source of faith.

Regardless of the fact He allowed him to die, it does not discount the allegory or figurative truth.

It's interesting that there was no dismissing of your concluding that the resurrection was shown forth in Lazarus being raised by myself, but all other truths presented to you in this account are dismissed, by you, out of hand.

It would be advantageous for you to see that others here have also shared truths from this account, and this ought not be dismissed. There is more than one truth contained in the account of Lazarus. There is also the truth that (in the other accounts highlighted above) the same figurative spiritual conclusions are conveyed. It shows the Christ as Messiah (redundant word usage, I know) (Matthew 1:21) That is, unless you dismiss those as well.

Keep in mind that it is not only Calvinists who believe what SG, others, myself have shared. Perhaps you should be more gracious in accepting that perhaps your thoughts on this story are incomplete, and not exhaustive? I believe that would be wise on your part to accept that.

 

[tyndale1946]

Yes, I'm shocked, shocked that Cal/Arm debates get off topic! LOL!

I guess I've said all I can say. Yes there are millions that haven't heard the gospel. It's a tragedy. But not hearing the gospel does not mean free will is negated, it means that they haven't heard the gospel.

The Millions Who Never Had A Choice?... Is Salvation a choice?... Adam and Eve made a choice and you all know how that story ended... Is The Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God A Choice?... I think not!... But its not what I think let scripture speak and tells us Jesus will never lose a one that the Father gave him... Brother Glen

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[thatbrian]

Okay Brothers, we are straying from the OP just a bit.

Let us get back on track. Agree?

I fully agree, but good luck getting this train back on its track.

Is the a way that just 2 people can debate a topic here? That might be helpful.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I fully agree, but good luck getting this train back on its track.

Is the a way that just 2 people can debate a topic here? That might be helpful.

Yes. It's called a PM.

 

[Internet Theologian]

The Millions Who Never Had A Choice?... Is Salvation a choice?...

I had the same thoughts on the OP. Regeneration is not a human choice: John 1:13; James 1:18; Romans 9:16, it is God's choice; Colossians 3:12; Romans 8:33; and this grand doctrine of election is the milk of the Word; 1 Cor. 1:26-31/3:1-2 , yet, many are afraid to teach this truth, avoid it altogether, or mention it in passing. This is one reason many are theologically shallow.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I suppose that the OP could also be worded 'The millions who've never HEARD'.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

If God simply provided a way of salvation in Christ's death, if salvation is there for the taking, but you must choose it to gain its benefits, then what about the millions and millions of people who have lived and died throughout history who never heard the gospel or even the name of Jesus?

Do Arminians (or, non-Calvinists) say that God wants to save all people, but He can't because He is limited by the human spreading of the gospel? Also, what if the humans who have presented the gospel did a very poor job in proclaiming it? Did the hearers have a reasonable shot at the "free gift" of salvation if they got a lousy gospel presentation?

What's the Arminian defense for their belief in free choice when there has been no choice for multiple millions?

God promises those that seek him will find him.

Look at Acts 8, God sent Philip to 1 person seeking him.
If someone is really seeking for God, God will make sure they cross paths with someone to share the gospel with them.

All human beings are without excuse because of the revelation or creation and the revelation of conscience, if man does not respond favorably to these two revelations, then God is at no responsibility to give them the revelation of the Gospel.

 

[thatbrian]

But here is where the tension betwixt both camps start. If they did not hear the gospel, how could they be saved? God saves, yes. But He does so via the gospel, as affirmed by Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:21, Eph. 1:13. So if they died without hearing the gospel, they won't get a pass. I am not saying you advocate that notion, InTheLight. Those who perish without the Law, perish by the Law. Why? They have the Law written upon their hearts, knowing it is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, &c. So they sin when they violate their conscience, those laws written upon their hearts.

Excellent!

 

[thatbrian]

The Millions Who Never Had A Choice?... Is Salvation a choice?... Adam and Eve made a choice and you all know how that story ended... Is The Sovereign Grace Of Almighty God A Choice?... I think not!... But its not what I think let scripture speak and tells us Jesus will never lose a one that the Father gave him... Brother Glen

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You obvious missed what I did. I used "their" (Arminian) language.

 

[tyndale1946]

You obvious missed what I did. I used "their" (Arminian) language.

Didn't miss it, just trying to get the train back on track... Brother Glen

 

[robustheologian]

God promises those that seek him will find him.

Look at Acts 8, God sent Philip to 1 person seeking him.
If someone is really seeking for God, God will make sure they cross paths with someone to share the gospel with them.

All human beings are without excuse because of the revelation or creation and the revelation of conscience, if man does not respond favorably to these two revelations, then God is at no responsibility to give them the revelation of the Gospel.

That is true...the Calvinist position doesn't deny that those who seek God will find Him. Calvinists believe that is has to be given to one to seek God because no one seeks him without the help of regeneration.

 

[robustheologian]

Well said. I also like to point out Gen 2:17, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Is God a liar?

This is a problem for those that argue against a spiritual death (man being dead in their sins). If there is no such spiritual death what happened here?? Good stuff thatbrian.

 

[steaver]

Brother Steaver,

As brother Robust explained earlier to you, the persons whom Christ would have gathered are not here represented as being unwilling to be gathered together under the protecting hand of Jesus, as a hen gathered her chickens under her wings; as many would have God’s people believe,

I understand Robust's explanation and your agreement with him. There is a difference of interpretation and opinion with this passage. I hold to Matthew Henry's interpretation as posted previously.

 

[tyndale1946]

Brother,

Let me ask you this, when one is born into this world, do they play role in their birth or is it a result solely of their parents doing? What about a creation, did Adam play a role in God creating him? And so it is in regeneration, we play no role.

As far as it your contention that being born again is not being bought back to life from the dead, you contradict three scriptures, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" (Ephesians 2:1), "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved" (Ephesians 2:5) and "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened" (Colossians 2:13). Who does those quickening in all these verses? God and God alone. Further, the Greek word for quickened in both Colossians 2:13 and Ephesians 2:5 is the verb "suzóopoieó:" which according to Strong's Greek Concordance means, "I make alive together with" (see here http://biblehub.com/greek/4806.htm ) Now, you tell me how you can make something alive that is not first dead?

Finally, Jesus said "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will" (John 5:1) and "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." (John 5:25). He must have been talking about sinners being born again, not the dead being raised upon his return as he said the hour "now is".

Finally, in the new birth, you do error in your belief that somehow a nature is changed, Jesus said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63) and Paul said after he was born again, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Romans 7:18). Before the new birth, there is the flesh only, after the new birth there is the flesh and the new inner man, scripture knows nothing of a changed nature.

God bless,

Brother Joe

Finally, Jesus said "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will" (John 5:1

Which bears this question what is the difference in the quickening of the Father and the quickening of the Son, and is there a difference?... If not why is dead mentioned in the quickening work of the Father, yet not the Son?...btw... Very informative post... Brother Joe!... Brother Glen

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Finally, Jesus said "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will" (John 5:1

Which bears this question what is the difference in the quickening of the Father and the quickening of the Son, and is there a difference?... If not why is dead mentioned in the quickening work of the Father, yet not the Son?...btw... Very informative post... Brother Joe!... Brother Glen

Brother, I don't think there is a difference. This is what Elder Gilbert Beebe wrote on this verse, "Here we have, in this last passage, an illustration of the manner in which the Son of God quickeneth whom he will. How does the Father raise the dead? Does he wait until the dead are willing to come to him for life? Does he promise to the slumbering tenants of the graves, that if they are willing he will raise them and quicken, or give them life? Certainly not. “The Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout, [not with a proposition, a proffer, or an invitation, but] with the voice of the arch-angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” - 1 Thess. iv. 16. “We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised.” - 1 Cor. xv. 51, 52. “Even so,” or exactly so, precisely so, “the Son quickeneth whom he will.” Will-worshipers, free-agents, and all Arminians, in whom the word of life does not abide, may, with the Jews, rage and blaspheme, but helpless sinners saved by grace, will exclaim in the fullness of their enraptured spirit, “Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are all thy ways, thou King of saints.” “We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty; which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.” - Rev. xv. 3, & xi. 17."

I think the key as Elder Beebe pointed out are the words in the verse that say "even so" or exactly so, precisely so, etc, in other words they do quicken in the same manner.