The Missing Balance in Calvinism

[Dave G]

The hidden goal of Calvinism is to impugn salvation and God

The "hidden goal" of "Calvinism" is to develop the details as to why salvation is entirely of God, and gives man nothing to rest in except His mercy and grace.

I remember sitting in Independent Baptist churches growing up, and hearing about how "God loves everyone"...and then finding out later, through my reading, that He doesn't.
With a realization like that, I remember thinking, "what god is this they are talking about?"
The God I saw in Scripture began to take on more and more detail, than the one I was being presented from the pulpits.
Fast forward to now, and He resembles nothing like Who I was taught about those many years ago.

Sure our desires change as Christians, but we also have free choice in serving God faithfully , so we can sin as Christians.
He does not force us to serve Him.

I agree.
As believers, we go right along with Him, because we now love Him and want to obey Him...
Out of free choice.

 

[Dave G]

Although when Calvinist claim everything is predestined. That means sin is predestined too even sin.

I think you've been talking to the wrong people.
Those that claim that everything is predestined by God, are called, "Hyper-Calvinists", because from my perspective, they take some things far too literally in their understanding of God's word.

I've even Heard Calvinist claim that if they sin it was predestined by God to happen

I've never met one of those.

Calvinism is not written in scripture. It's twisted from scripture by man's own interpretation.

Apparently I twisted it for myself when I read God's word, because I certainly didn't learn it from a pulpit or a theological book.

None of you allow God to interpret scripture for you it's always what you think that makes up the nonsense you believe.

God doesn't interpret Scripture...He opens a person's mind in order to properly understand it ( Luke 24:45 ).
Otherwise, we cannot make sense of it all.

After we've become believers, what He says then begins to make sense.
The problem is, many people chalk things up to "interpretation", when to me, it's a simple matter of either believing the words on the page in their proper contexts, or not.

The Bible is not a "carnal" book...it is a spiritual book intended for the minds of God's children.
That's why it's probably the only book in all of history that most people cannot seem to make sense of, without a "college degree".

Not all Calvinist are exactly the same but all do exactly what I just said about interpretation of Scripture.

I'll take your word for it..
But I still disagree.

 

[Dave G]

You interpret it to fit the way you want it to or you let someone else do it for you.

I find it strange that you would state this, considering my background.

I came out of a group that claims to preach and teach the entire council of God's will and all of His word... yet in practice, there are whole sections of Scripture that they never even made a dent in, in their sermons and teachings.
Passages that get skipped permanently, I imagine, for fear that they will generate too much controversy.

For example, I've seen more discussed about the Bible , in one year on this forum than I ever saw in 25 years of being in Independent Baptist churches, and being involved in their Bible studies.

We are told to seek God but you claim no one does, they can't because they are disabled.

With respect,
I think you've misunderstood the threads and many of the posts from the "Calvinists" on this board, and possibly much of what I and others have stated.

Even Paul told people to seek God ( Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31 ).

But He also told those who had believed on Christ, later on, Who was behind the miraculous change in their hearts and minds.
He then gets into why it was necessary to change the hearts and minds of those who are to have an everlasting, heart-to-heart relationship with God and His Son...

Because deep down, we're "busted", and unable ( and most of all, unwilling ) to fix the problem.

It's not simply a matter of God "handing us the right tool" to help us fix it...
It's a matter of God looking down, seeing that we couldn't care less, and fixing it all for us.

Am I telling you not to seek the Lord?
No.
I'm telling you, that if you have success, there is a reason for it....and it wasn't because our wills had anything to do with why we suddenly felt motivated to seek Him;
Especially after a life that was, up until we believed, full of nothing but thoughts and cares for ourselves and this world's ways.


May God bless you.

 

[Dave G]

That's why it's probably the only book in all of history that most people cannot seem to make sense of, without a "college degree".

I'd like to clarify this statement:
I don't believe a college degree or Bible college education is needed for a born again believer to properly understand their Saviour's words.

But I do believe that many people seem to think that in order to understand it, a college degree is necessary...it isn't.

 

[1689Dave]

Any time that some truth which is held in balance in God’s word is given an emphasis on only one side, then misunderstanding and error result. It is true, as the Calvinists emphasize, that election in eternity past is unconditional. But the neglected Biblical balance is this: salvation in this temporal world is conditional, and God blesses no one with the saving, justifying, regenerating, life-giving union with Christ until they drop their rebellion, humble themselves, and come in genuine, repentant, fully surrendered faith. It is true, as the Calvinists emphasize, that faith is the gift of God; but it is just as Biblically true that faith is the requirement of God for salvation.

If this Biblical balance were not the case, then we would expect to see the Calvinist one-sided view reflected in Scripture, with only election put forth as the pivotal thing of salvation. But instead, we see throughout that it is faith/belief that is the pivotal thing on which salvation or destruction are decided. If the Calvinists were correct, we should expect that verses such as John 3:16 should read, “…that whoever was not going to perish but was going to have eternal life would believe in Him;” but instead we find, “…that whoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life.” Throughout Scripture, belief is pivotal to salvation. That is why we preach to men—to implore them to believe. Belief results in justification and forgiveness, it results in reconciliation with God and the life-giving, regenerating indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Belief results in adoption and spiritual rebirth into God’s family. On the other hand, unbelief results in a man dying in his sins, it results in the wrath of God, it results in eternal destruction. Belief cannot be simply one of the fruits of the Spirit given in some uninvited regenerational indwelling, else it would not have been given such an ostensibly pivotal role in whether a man goes to heaven or to hell.

This imbalance in the Calvinist understanding results in two things. First, it results in an overly transcendent view of how God works with men to accomplish His plan. Sinners are seen as locked behind obstacles to faith that are impossible to overcome, and God is seen as regenerating men without any regard to their own will in the matter. What I’m trying to get you to see is that such a one-sided, transcendent scheme is unnecessary—that there is a more Biblical and more immanent way to understand this. Belief is the pivotal thing precisely because unbelief is never mere ignorance of the truth but is always rebellion against the God of that truth—just as belief is never mere mental assent to the truth but must always be a repentant submission to the God of that truth. It is not necessary to an unconditional election that the responses of men be irrelevant. If God implores all men to come, and only saves those who do come, it fits perfectly with election if God is responsible for whether or not a man is ultimately persuaded to come. God knows all men completely, and knows exactly how much persuasion would be needed to bring any man to his knees in repentant faith; and God is in charge of all circumstances, including length of life.

The second result is the hidden assumption of an indifference in God toward the nonelect. It is assumed that if God had any desire toward saving the nonelect, then He would have elected them. It is an overly simplistic view of God that fails to consider that the exigencies of the justice in God’s nature may have required Him to accept what is repugnant to Him (the perishing of so many) for the greater purposes of accomplishing His plan for His glory. The simplistic view sees that God can simply do whatever He wants; but God cannot go against His own sense of justice, which would be to go against Himself. The fact is that if Adam had not sinned, then all men would have been elect. In order for God’s plan to include the sin of mankind in Adam, it would have to include so tragic the results of that sin. Sin must have results; and the sin of the race in Adam has the necessary result of only a remnant being saved in the end. “God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked,” and, “God is not willing that any should perish…” but God allows what is repugnant to His nature in order to accomplish what is to His greatest glory.

The difference between these two views of God is reflected in how God relates to the nonelect. If God is seen as having indifferently passed over so many for election, then He is seen as having little to no compassion toward the nonelect regarding any offer of salvation or any desire for their salvation. But if God is seen as a God who truly loves all, and who did not pass over so many out of any lack of love toward them, but only as a necessary judgment on the race as a whole, then God can indeed have compassion toward the nonelect and can indeed make salvation available in such a way as to make their destruction a matter of their own refusal and not merely a matter of God refusing to offer to save all who would be willing to come.

Your "balance" gives some of God's glory in salvation to wicked unbelievers who think they believe in the true Christ through the power of the flesh. But the truth is, God saves unbelievers giving them a new believing and repentant nature. Notice what John says; “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (NASB95)

 

[MB]

I find it strange that you would state this, considering my background.

I came out of a group that claims to preach and teach the entire council of God's will and all of His word... yet in practice, there are whole sections of Scripture that they never even made a dent in, in their sermons and teachings.
Passages that get skipped permanently, I imagine, for fear that they will generate too much controversy.

That's because they haven't figured out how to twist it yet.

For example, I've seen more discussed about the Bible , in one year on this forum than I ever saw in 25 years of being in Independent Baptist churches, and being involved in their Bible studies.

With respect,
I think you've misunderstood the threads and many of the posts from the "Calvinists" on this board, and possibly much of what I and others have stated.

Even Paul told people to seek God ( Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31 ).

No I didn't misunderstand anything. There are three Dave's on this board and a;ll of them are Calvinist. I have read things that make God out to be just like the devil. God is not a dictator forcing particular people to conform to His worship.
You tell me I did not understand. The meaning of this is that I'm still carnal. Of course those who do not understand are lost. While the condition of your selves is misdirected in Calvinism. IOW's it keeps you from seeing the truth of scripture. You are so absolutely sure that you are right and everyone else is wrong. It has become a matter of pride I presume

.

But He also told those who had believed on Christ, later on, Who was behind the miraculous change in their hearts and minds.
He then gets into why it was necessary to change the hearts and minds of those who are to have an everlasting, heart-to-heart relationship with God and His Son...

Because deep down, we're "busted", and unable ( and most of all, unwilling ) to fix the problem.

This miraculous change of heart happened in me a long time ago and I was willing for it.
God's word says;
2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
However I was not broken or unable to understand or accept Christ. I surrendered my will to His will. I came to Him because I was drawn to Him because of His suffering for me. I had to know why He would do such a thing for sinners who are in fact His enemies. He died for me that I might have life.. I praise God that I had no inability stopping me from seeking Him. A willing heart is accepted.

It's not simply a matter of God "handing us the right tool" to help us fix it...
It's a matter of God looking down, seeing that we couldn't care less, and fixing it all for us.

Am I telling you not to seek the Lord?
No.
I'm telling you, that if you have success, there is a reason for it....and it wasn't because our wills had anything to do with why we suddenly felt motivated to seek Him;
Especially after a life that was, up until we believed, full of nothing but thoughts and cares for ourselves and this world's ways.

[/QUOTE

Your misunderstanding is caused by extremism here The carnal man can understand the milk of the word. You overlook this because it conflicks with your presumption.

May God bless you.

You have a blessed day
MB

 

[MB]

Your "balance" gives some of God's glory in salvation to wicked unbelievers who think they believe in the true Christ through the power of the flesh. But the truth is, God saves unbelievers giving them a new believing and repentant nature. Notice what John says; “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (NASB95)

You cannot think you believe in Christ with out actually believing. I know, you should just spit out the truth of what you believe and that is a man isn't saved unless he believes in Calvinism. When the sad thing about your ideas are that they are wrong and you don't even know it. Maybe you are just broken. Ever think of that
MB

 

[1689Dave]

You cannot think you believe in Christ with out actually believing. I know, you should just spit out the truth of what you believe and that is a man isn't saved unless he believes in Calvinism. When the sad thing about your ideas are that they are wrong and you don't even know it. Maybe you are just broken. Ever think of that
MB

The kind of faith you buy used cars with cannot save. This is Catholic type faith. True Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit given only to those for whom Christ died.

 

[Dave G]

You tell me I did not understand. The meaning of this is that I'm still carnal.

To me, the meaning of it is either you are not saved, or you are not studying His word as you should...that is what Scripture teaches, and that has also been my experience.

I am not saying that you are not saved...That is not my call to make.

Of course those who do not understand are lost. While the condition of your selves is misdirected in Calvinism. IOW's it keeps you from seeing the truth of scripture. You are so absolutely sure that you are right and everyone else is wrong. It has become a matter of pride I presume

It's not a matter of pride.
It's a matter of looking at the words on the page and believing them.

For example:
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:48 )

Do you believe this at face value?
I did, the very first time I was exposed to it.
I didn't even feel the need to wrestle with it...I just knew it was true without having a second thought about it.

The simple fact is, Christ's sheep "hear" His voice ( John 10:27 )...every word, even if they don't immediately understand it.
He that is "of God" "hears" God's word ( John 8:47 ).


MB,
I believe your testimony.
What I'm finding hard to believe, is not that you are sincere, or that you disagree with "Calvinism", but that you disagree with what is written.

In truth, that is what I find to be odd... is that a person can claim to be Christ's, yet reject the words on the page...
Not simply wrestle with it, but outright reject those words.

With that said,
I have no intention to offend you, even though it seems that I have, nor to seek your hurt in any way.
If you don't agree, you don't agree.

From here on out, I will not seek to interact with you... because to me, you simply reject my "interpretation" of the passages.
Apparently to you, I am someone who worships a monstrous dictator that unrighteously condemns people to Hell out of some sort of capriciousness...not because they are sinners that actually deserve it, but because "He just treats men cruelly and callously on a whim".

I'm not and I don't....and He doesn't.
I'm someone who sees a God in the pages of His word that is not popular, and not taught in the vast majority of churches that name the name of Christ.
A God that is quite a bit more sobering, powerful, and selective about who He saves and who He doesn't, who He loves and who He doesn't, than what is presented from the vast majority of pulpits out there in "Christendom".


At the end of the day, if you don't believe the same way, that is fine...
But two cannot walk together unless they agree ( Amos 3:3 ).
So no matter what happens, and no matter what our personal testimonies, the matter of doctrine will always separate us, until something changes.

This is my final reply to you, sir.
I'll put you on "ignore" so I'm not tempted to reply to your posts anymore, for the sake of both of us.



I wish God's blessing upon you in your walk with Him, and in your continued studies in His word.

 

[MB]

The kind of faith you buy used cars with cannot save. This is Catholic type faith. True Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit given only to those for whom Christ died.

No scripture to prove this because this is your twisted belief.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

No scripture to prove this because this is your twisted belief.
MB

Flesh faith "used car faith" is blind to spiritual truth and can only hear a false gospel and choose a false Christ.
“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)

 

[MB]

Flesh faith "used car faith" is blind to spiritual truth and can only hear a false gospel and choose a false Christ.
“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB95)

Obviously you haven't accepted the things from the Spirit of God.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

Obviously you haven't accepted the things from the Spirit of God.
MB

Find faith anywhere in the flesh.

“Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (NASB95)

The flesh will only worship a false Christ.

Find Faith in the New Birth.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness [faith], gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” Galatians 5:22–23 (NASB95)

 

[MB]

I wonder do you think you are about to convince me of Calvinism? If so, I can assure you, you are sorely mistaken. If all Christians were like Calvinist I never would have. believed. Even your natural man would know better. You make Salvation complicated and not attainable. Calvinism is simply not true. nor scriptural. Just like a Jehovah's witness you are on the wrong path. Sadly you will find this out on resurrection day. If you don't change.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

I wonder do you think you are about to convince me of Calvinism? If so, I can assure you, you are sorely mistaken. If all Christians were like Calvinist I never would have. believed. Even your natural man would know better. You make Salvation complicated and not attainable. Calvinism is simply not true. nor scriptural. Just like a Jehovah's witness you are on the wrong path. Sadly you will find this out on resurrection day. If you don't change.
MB

Only God can reveal the truth. It works like this. If Calvin was right about God, most hate God and worship idols.

 

[Yeshua1]

Any time that some truth which is held in balance in God’s word is given an emphasis on only one side, then misunderstanding and error result. It is true, as the Calvinists emphasize, that election in eternity past is unconditional. But the neglected Biblical balance is this: salvation in this temporal world is conditional, and God blesses no one with the saving, justifying, regenerating, life-giving union with Christ until they drop their rebellion, humble themselves, and come in genuine, repentant, fully surrendered faith. It is true, as the Calvinists emphasize, that faith is the gift of God; but it is just as Biblically true that faith is the requirement of God for salvation.

If this Biblical balance were not the case, then we would expect to see the Calvinist one-sided view reflected in Scripture, with only election put forth as the pivotal thing of salvation. But instead, we see throughout that it is faith/belief that is the pivotal thing on which salvation or destruction are decided. If the Calvinists were correct, we should expect that verses such as John 3:16 should read, “…that whoever was not going to perish but was going to have eternal life would believe in Him;” but instead we find, “…that whoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life.” Throughout Scripture, belief is pivotal to salvation. That is why we preach to men—to implore them to believe. Belief results in justification and forgiveness, it results in reconciliation with God and the life-giving, regenerating indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Belief results in adoption and spiritual rebirth into God’s family. On the other hand, unbelief results in a man dying in his sins, it results in the wrath of God, it results in eternal destruction. Belief cannot be simply one of the fruits of the Spirit given in some uninvited regenerational indwelling, else it would not have been given such an ostensibly pivotal role in whether a man goes to heaven or to hell.

This imbalance in the Calvinist understanding results in two things. First, it results in an overly transcendent view of how God works with men to accomplish His plan. Sinners are seen as locked behind obstacles to faith that are impossible to overcome, and God is seen as regenerating men without any regard to their own will in the matter. What I’m trying to get you to see is that such a one-sided, transcendent scheme is unnecessary—that there is a more Biblical and more immanent way to understand this. Belief is the pivotal thing precisely because unbelief is never mere ignorance of the truth but is always rebellion against the God of that truth—just as belief is never mere mental assent to the truth but must always be a repentant submission to the God of that truth. It is not necessary to an unconditional election that the responses of men be irrelevant. If God implores all men to come, and only saves those who do come, it fits perfectly with election if God is responsible for whether or not a man is ultimately persuaded to come. God knows all men completely, and knows exactly how much persuasion would be needed to bring any man to his knees in repentant faith; and God is in charge of all circumstances, including length of life.

The second result is the hidden assumption of an indifference in God toward the nonelect. It is assumed that if God had any desire toward saving the nonelect, then He would have elected them. It is an overly simplistic view of God that fails to consider that the exigencies of the justice in God’s nature may have required Him to accept what is repugnant to Him (the perishing of so many) for the greater purposes of accomplishing His plan for His glory. The simplistic view sees that God can simply do whatever He wants; but God cannot go against His own sense of justice, which would be to go against Himself. The fact is that if Adam had not sinned, then all men would have been elect. In order for God’s plan to include the sin of mankind in Adam, it would have to include so tragic the results of that sin. Sin must have results; and the sin of the race in Adam has the necessary result of only a remnant being saved in the end. “God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked,” and, “God is not willing that any should perish…” but God allows what is repugnant to His nature in order to accomplish what is to His greatest glory.

The difference between these two views of God is reflected in how God relates to the nonelect. If God is seen as having indifferently passed over so many for election, then He is seen as having little tothemselves, as its built right into our sdin natures! no compassion toward the nonelect regarding any offer of salvation or any desire for their salvation. But if God is seen as a God who truly loves all, and who did not pass over so many out of any lack of love toward them, but only as a necessary judgment on the race as a whole, then God can indeed have compassion toward the nonelect and can indeed make salvation available in such a way as to make their destruction a matter of their own refusal and not merely a matter of God refusing to offer to save all who would be willing to come.

NONE can cease to be at war against God by ourselves, as its built into our sin natures!

 

[BroOldTimer]

The "hidden goal" of "Calvinism" is to develop the details as to why salvation is entirely of God, and gives man nothing to rest in except His mercy and grace.

I remember sitting in Independent Baptist churches growing up, and hearing about how "God loves everyone"...and then finding out later, through my reading, that He doesn't.
With a realization like that, I remember thinking, "what god is this they are talking about?"
The God I saw in Scripture began to take on more and more detail, than the one I was being presented from the pulpits.
Fast forward to now, and He resembles nothing like Who I was taught about those many years ago.

I agree.
As believers, we go right along with Him, because we now love Him and want to obey Him...
Out of free choice.

I see a fundamental flaw in your argument. Salvation is the GREATEST love story that has ever been told. Do you deny John 3:16?

"For GOD so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I am not an educated Bible scholar nor do I possess a degree from a seminary, but I can tell you that God loves this world so much that he gave his only son to save it. That's a plain fact from scripture. Does God love the darkness that man has born into this world? Absolutely not. God forbid that His Christ or his children be love the ways of this world. But to say that God doesn't love sinners is to say that a mother detests her child. It's morally apprehensible and NOT Biblical.

Just because God serves justice doesn't mean He doesn't love.

 

[Dave G]

I see a fundamental flaw in your argument.

Many people do, and there are a few that agree with me.
But I still appreciate your reply, even if you do not.

I am not an educated Bible scholar nor do I possess a degree from a seminary,

Neither am I and neither do I, sir.
I wouldn't have it any other way.

Salvation is the GREATEST love story that has ever been told.

I agree...more than can probably be seen in many of my posts.


To me, God's gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23 ) is more than I could have ever hoped for.

 

[Dave G]

Do you deny John 3:16?

No, I do not.
In fact, I do not deny a single word of His precious book ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).

I also think that it is not the only passage that tells me who He loves, either.
For that, one of my favorite passages is Romans 5:8-11.
Another is Ephesians 2:4-10.

So, even though I do not deny John 3:16, I do my best to take it in context with the many other things that He has to say about who He loves ( Psalms 37:28, Psalms 116:15, Psalms 145:20, Romans 5:8, 1 John 4:19 ), who He hates ( Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5 ), whose hearts He hardens ( Romans 9:18, Exodus 4:21 ), whose He softens ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26, Jeremiah 32:40, Acts of the Apostles 2:37, Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), who He allows Satan to blind to the truth of the Gospel ( John 12:37-41, Romans 11:7-8, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ) and many other subjects.

Some questions for you, sir...
Do you deny Acts of the Apostles 13:48?

John 10:26?
John 6:44?
John 6:64-65?
John 17:2?
Romans 8:28-30?
Ephesians 1:4-5?
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14?
Psalms 65:4?
Romans 9:13?

I sincerely hope not.
To me, Scripture is a book of letters ( not verses ) that are designed to do one thing...

To inform His children of what He did for them.

The greatest love story ever told.
Jesus, Emmanuel ( God with us ) the Son of the living God, who was born of a woman and died on a cross for me...
So that I could have an eternal relationship with Him and His Father...my Father.

Who loved me so much, that He gave up His Son for my worthless hide and redeemed me from His own terrifying wrath.
I don't have to go to Hell because of His many gifts...the greatest of these being His unspeakable gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23 ).

One I couldn't have earned with all the gold in the world ( Ephesians 2:9 ).
Simply believing was something that I thought I did, in and of myself...until He showed me the rest of how and why He did it.
He showed me that even my belief was given to me ( Philippians 1:29 ).

"Amazing Grace", wrote John Newton...a "Calvinist".
"When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" and "Alas! and Did my Saviour Bleed", wrote Isaac Watts, a "Calvinist".
"Rock of Ages", wrote Augustus Toplady, a "Calvinist".


No sir, I don't deny one precious word of His marvelous book... and my sincere hope is, that neither do you.
May you be blessed greatly in your walk with Him.

 

[BroOldTimer]

Our perspectives and interpretations differ greatly, but I do not deny the Holy Word of God. I consider it as necessary to life as breath and bread.


Acts 13:48; Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Psalm 65:4


My understanding of the doctrine of election is election by foreknowledge. I realize that the Calvinist will deny this interpretation. (1st Peter 1:2; Romans 8:29) I also acknowledge that other passages referring to election could refer to a “general election” of people set aside for the holy purposes of God. This is also supported by the Old Testament election of Israel as God’s chosen people. Especially, when I consider Rahab and Ruth who became part of the elect when they weren’t part of the Hebrew people.


John 10:26

Jesus is talking to unbelieving, and lost Jews in this passage. Go on and read John 10:37-38. I understand that the condition of “not being a sheep” is changeable. Jesus told them that he was doing the works of the father, and encouraged them to believe that that may know that Christ and the Father are together.


John 6:44

God MUST call and convict for a sinner to be saved. ]God is calling ALL men to repent. (Acts 17:30, John 12:32; 1st John 2:2)


John 6:64-65; John 17:2

I don’t deny that Jesus knew who would deny him. Thankfully, by God’s call to all men to repent of his sins he can be given to the son for salvation. See Acts 17:30 and 1st John 2:2 again.

Romans 9:13

This reference is toward their respective descendents. Several verses show that God also blessed and protected Esau (Deuteronomy 23:7: Genesis 33:8-16). I don’t deny that God chose Jacob to father the nation of Israel to bring his plan of salvation into the world.


Ultimately, I know that both of us will continue to defend our position. These verses, and ideas are also taught in the Bible.


1. Romans 1:20 plainly states that “they are without excuse”. The verse details that God has revealed himself in creation. How can “they be without excuse” IF they never had a choice to begin with?

2. 2nd Peter 3:9 states that God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Sounds like there will be room enough for whoever believes the gospel.

3. 1st Timothy 2:4 states that (in reference to God) “Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” All means all and that’s all it means.
4. Genesis 3:6 ultimately tells the story of how free will brought sin into the lives of mankind. If man cannot make those types of decisions then God would be the author of sin. Did our sin catch God by surprise? Absolutely not. He already had the master plan figured out.
5. Matthew 19:24. If grace is irresistible then why would it be harder for Jesus to save a rich man than a poor man?
6. Matthew 23:37. Jesus wanted to gather their children together as a hen gathers her chicks, but they were not willing. This implies that the children of Jerusalem had the choice to serve God or to serve the flesh.

7. Again, John 3:16. Please consider the phrase “For God so loved the world”. He loved a poor, lost and wretched world. He loved it so well that He gave the best that heaven had to save “whosoever believeth in him”. Sounds like free will to me.
Finally, wouldn’t both of our efforts be better concentrated on this forum to build each other up to serve the Lord? Wouldn’t prayer for each other do more good? I think that division and debate weaken us, and distract us from the fact that Jesus is coming soon. I firmly believe there will be Calvinists, Traditionalists, and Arminians in heaven. In that day, we will lay aside the differences and be united by the precious blood that bought and paid for our souls. Then, ultimately, it won’t matter if I repented by free will or was elected to salvation before the world began.