The modern sin of Empathy or "Believe all women"

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

There is conversation in Evangelical circles about our modern "Believe the Victim"-style Empathy being sin. I would agree 100% with this.
Let's run a generic modern example between Susie and a Pastor.
Susie: "Hi Pastor. I wanted to let you know that Bob did a bad thing to me"
Pastor: "Oh Susie, I'm so sorry to hear that. Is there anything I can do to help?"

In this example Susie makes a claim against Bob. The Pastor in this example automatically attributes truth to Susie's claim thereby bearing false witness against Bob as no facts have been presented. This is also known as "Guilty until proven innocent". The Bible is quite clear on the need for witnesses and evidence. To show empathy like this devalues Bob as you are assuming this action happened, and therefore that Bob is guilty.

Let's run an example that is Biblical:
Susie: "Hi Pastor. I wanted to let you know that Bob did a bad thing to me"
Pastor: "Thanks for letting me know Susie. Can you give me some details? I'll need to talk to Bob too."

In this example the Pastor accepts Susie's accusation, without laying blame, and also gives Bob a chance to speak too. This is how things like this should be handled, but in our modern culture 99% of problems are handled using the first, bad example. This logic is the reason why people are now "guilty until proven innocent" in the U.S, why Christians are fired from jobs for not using preferred pronouns, and why business sever ties with people on the mere accusation of wrongdoing.

 

[Wingman68]

 

[canadyjd]

First, you seem to believe the church has a problem with Christian women making false allegations against the men in the church. I haven’t seen an reports of that.

There is a big difference between saying, “Bob did something bad to me,” and “Bob se@sully assaulted me”.

If Susie is a minor, the Pastor has a moral and legal obligation to report the accusation to Law enforcement.

There are different circumstances between the accusation made to church leadership and an accusation made in a business. Businesses must develop protocols that protect employees from misconduct.

It is certainly important to find the truth about such accusations. But the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” is a criminal legal standard that does not apply in any other setting.

Peace to you

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

First, you seem to believe the church has a problem with Christian women making false allegations against the men in the church. I haven’t seen an reports of that.

The SBC is full of allegations. Whether or not they're true is an entirely different matter, yet the Liberals in the SBC are throwing a fit for Christian men refusing to 'Believe All Women', which can more accurately be described as "Believe All Women Without Evidence".

There is a big difference between saying, “Bob did something bad to me,” and “Bob se@sully assaulted me”.

There is no difference. In both cases the truth must be sought out.

If Susie is a minor, the Pastor has a moral and legal obligation to report the accusation to Law enforcement.

Susie is a adult in the hypothetical example.

There are different circumstances between the accusation made to church leadership and an accusation made in a business. Businesses must develop protocols that protect employees from misconduct.

And the current protocol for misconduct is "fire whoever is accused" regardless of guilt. Do you support that?

It is certainly important to find the truth about such accusations. But the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” is a criminal legal standard that does not apply in any other setting.

It is not Criminal only. It is God's law where this idea comes from. Western Judicial systems are originally based off of the Bible. The Bible is clear on the idea of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty".

Clear Bible Verse example:
“If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife… the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death” (Levitucus 20:10)

Death if there is evidence of adultery.

“If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act, if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself, the man shall them bring his wife to the priest…” (Numbers 5:12-15).

When there is only accusation the Priest hears both sides.

 

[just-want-peace]

------ But the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” is a criminal legal standard that does not apply in any other setting.

Peace to you

May be a comprehension problem here, BUT are you saying that "not assigning guilt/innocence" is different than -- “innocent until proven guilty”??? If so, I don't see the difference - please 'splain further. Thanks!!

 

[OnlyaSinner]

It is certainly important to find the truth about such accusations. But the standard of “innocent until proven guilty” is a criminal legal standard that does not apply in any other setting.

Peace to you

I think the bolded is too sweeping a phrase, mainly for the biblical reasons noted above. I hope your alternative to "innocent until proven guilty" would be "neither innocent nor guilty until all the facts are known". "Guilty until proven innocent" in a world populated by sinners (Rom. 3:23) would invite false witness.

 

[canadyjd]

May be a comprehension problem here, BUT are you saying that "not assigning guilt/innocence" is different than -- “innocent until proven guilty”??? If so, I don't see the difference - please 'splain further. Thanks!!

The OP claims that to show empathy to a woman making an allegation of abuse is a sin. That is abhorrent. It isn’t my job to assign guilt. My obligation to a sister in Christ is to show empathy, concern for what she is saying.

If a woman confides in me that she has been assaulted, I will believe her unless or until evidence suggests otherwise. I will show her empathy and counsel her according to the circumstances.

In a criminal case, a woman files a police report of the abuse. The police investigate and a prosecutor decides if the allegation is credible and charges are filed. If it goes to trial, the person is assumed innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof on the state is beyond a reasonable doubt.

Churches are not courtrooms. Businesses are not courtrooms. A different standard applies.

To claim showing empathy is a sin is just nonsense.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I think the bolded is too sweeping a phrase, mainly for the biblical reasons noted above. I hope your alternative to "innocent until proven guilty" would be "neither innocent nor guilty until all the facts are known". "Guilty until proven innocent" in a world populated by sinners (Rom. 3:23) would invite false witness.

I never said “guilty until proven innocent”. It’s not my place to assign guilt.

If a woman confides in me she has been assaulted, I will believe her. I have no reason not to. I will show her empathy and I refuse to believe God thinks it’s a sin to show empathy in such circumstances.

Why does the term “innocent until proven guilty” not apply to the woman? The OP assumes the woman is a lying little harlot trying to taint the reputation of the man.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The SBC is full of allegations. Whether or not they're true is an entirely different matter, yet the Liberals in the SBC are throwing a fit for Christian men refusing to 'Believe All Women', which can more accurately be described as "Believe All Women Without Evidence".


There is no difference. In both cases the truth must be sought out.


Susie is a adult in the hypothetical example.


And the current protocol for misconduct is "fire whoever is accused" regardless of guilt. Do you support that?



It is not Criminal only. It is God's law where this idea comes from. Western Judicial systems are originally based off of the Bible. The Bible is clear on the idea of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty".

Clear Bible Verse example:
“If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife… the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death” (Levitucus 20:10)

Death if there is evidence of adultery.

“If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act, if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself, the man shall them bring his wife to the priest…” (Numbers 5:12-15).

When there is only accusation the Priest hears both sides.

I pray with all my heart that no woman would ever trust you enough to confide that she had been assaulted.

May God Holy Spirit lead her to someone with empathy and compassion, instead of someone consumed with convention politics.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The SBC is full of allegations. Whether or not they're true is an entirely different matter, yet the Liberals in the SBC are throwing a fit for Christian men refusing to 'Believe All Women', which can more accurately be described as "Believe All Women Without Evidence".


There is no difference. In both cases the truth must be sought out.


Susie is a adult in the hypothetical example.


And the current protocol for misconduct is "fire whoever is accused" regardless of guilt. Do you support that?



It is not Criminal only. It is God's law where this idea comes from. Western Judicial systems are originally based off of the Bible. The Bible is clear on the idea of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty".

Clear Bible Verse example:
“If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife… the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death” (Levitucus 20:10)

Death if there is evidence of adultery.

“If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act, if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself, the man shall them bring his wife to the priest…” (Numbers 5:12-15).

When there is only accusation the Priest hears both sides.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man rapes a young woman, he must pay her father and then marry the girl and can never divorce her.

I thank God we don’t live under OT Law

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

I pray with all my heart that no woman would ever trust you enough to confide that she had been assaulted.

May God Holy Spirit lead her to someone with empathy and compassion, instead of someone consumed with convention politics.

I think you're overreacting again. Spare us the drama.

 

[canadyjd]

I think you're overreacting again. Spare us the drama.

As always, I appreciate your opinion. I disagree.

The OP is claiming it is “sin” to have empathy toward a woman claiming to have been assaulted.

I have been restrained in my comments, I promise you.

peace to you

 

[Scarlett O.]

I'm a 60-year-old woman now, but I experienced sexual molestation in elementary school from a "family friend". It went on for quite some time. No one taught us back then that you could say "GET YOUR HANDS OFF OF ME!" We were trained to obey all adults and I felt for YEARS that it was all my fault. How could it be an 8-year-old's fault!?!?

I receieved no therapy, no empathy, no help, and it was swept under the rug. That's what people did back then - just pretend it didn't happen as not to embarrass the family. There was great shame in being a victim of molestation back then and there still is.

To hear a grown man say that it is a SIN to have empathy for a woman expressing that she has been abused makes me want to throw up. It makes me want to punch the wall.

No need to respond to this post. I doubt you give a crap anyway.

 

[canadyjd]

I'm a 60-year-old woman now, but I experienced sexual molestation in elementary school from a "family friend". It went on for quite some time. No one taught us back then that you could say "GET YOUR HANDS OFF OF ME!" We were trained to obey all adults and I felt for YEARS that it was all my fault. How could it be an 8-year-old's fault!?!?

I receieved no therapy, no empathy, no help, and it was swept under the rug. That's what people did back then - just pretend it didn't happen as not to embarrass the family. There was great shame in being a victim of molestation back then and there still is.

To hear a grown man say that it is a SIN to have empathy for a woman expressing that she has been abused makes me want to throw up. It makes me want to punch the wall.

No need to respond to this post. I doubt you give a crap anyway.

Thank you for sharing such a painful story. May God give you peace.

My daughter was assaulted at 13. She still has issues to work out. I blamed myself for years (I dropped her off at the “friends” house). Very helpless feeling.

It is very hard to hear a Christian claim empathy is a sin. I can’t imagine such thinking.

Thanks again for sharing.

peace to you

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Empathy always, but the pastor's net action would hinge on the nature of the "bad thing". If it was saying that her mother-in-law would not be allowed to move in, the pastor might try to work toward some consensus for Susie and Bob. If it's physical or extreme verbal abuse, time to call the police and let them do the fact finding, and the pastor should also decide the appropriate actions to ensure Susie's safety.