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The Moral Law's Standard of Righteousness
- Thread starter Dr. Walter
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
John 6
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe
1. Obviously Jesus is not arguing that God is at fault for failing to cause them to "believe".
2. This is not a text promising salvation to those who “do not believe” but who at least “used to believe at one time” the way some versions of OSAS would have it.
John 6
37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''
3. same model again - "you have seen me - so believe" for the model is "everyone who beholds the Son and believes.. Will have eternal life" -
No emphasis is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I pith will be forced to believe". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.
And no emphasis on “Salvation for those not beholding Christ, and not believing on Him” the way the OSAS argument sometimes imagines.
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
3. Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.
"God so Loved the World that He gave..." John 3:16
"God is not willing for any to perish" 2Peter 3
"God draws ALL men" unto him - John 12:32.
"Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2.
"He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1.
"The Spirit of truth convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12.
I along with many other Arminians have always agreed that God is the first cause.
At no point have I denied that God knows the end from the beginning.
However - Christ is clear that those who "believe" are saved. At no point does Christ make the flawed OSAS argument "Those who used to believe will be saved".
1. You are only willing to view this backwards. Both Arminians and Calvinists agree that in the end all are not saved and that God knows the end from the beginning. That does not address the point of difference.
2. Where we differ is that OSAS goes "beyond the text" to argue that those that are given (in that forknowledge context of the statement) includes those who at the end DO NOT BELIEVE. Which is a horrible wrench of the text.
Which only dooms the OSAS position for anyone claiming that someone is saved who "used to believe but no longer believes" because in vs 40 Christ insists that they DO believe.
He also argues that the salvation that he offers is based on the future resurrection.
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
wrong - it is "all men without qualification" there is no qualifier - it is ALL.
The statements are global - and without restriction.
Those who choose to serve Christ are accepted - without restriction.
All are drawn - without qualification.
All can agree that an "unqualified ALL" does not restrict itself to "jews".
Neither does "all Jews plus one gentile".
Your argument fails in the inconvenient details of the text.
lack of content in your post ... "noted".
in Christ,
Bob
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe
1. Obviously Jesus is not arguing that God is at fault for failing to cause them to "believe".
2. This is not a text promising salvation to those who “do not believe” but who at least “used to believe at one time” the way some versions of OSAS would have it.
John 6
37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''
3. same model again - "you have seen me - so believe" for the model is "everyone who beholds the Son and believes.. Will have eternal life" -
No emphasis is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I pith will be forced to believe". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.
And no emphasis on “Salvation for those not beholding Christ, and not believing on Him” the way the OSAS argument sometimes imagines.
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
3. Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.
"God so Loved the World that He gave..." John 3:16
"God is not willing for any to perish" 2Peter 3
"God draws ALL men" unto him - John 12:32.
"Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2.
"He is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1.
"The Spirit of truth convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8-12.
I along with many other Arminians have always agreed that God is the first cause.
At no point have I denied that God knows the end from the beginning.
However - Christ is clear that those who "believe" are saved. At no point does Christ make the flawed OSAS argument "Those who used to believe will be saved".
1. You are only willing to view this backwards. Both Arminians and Calvinists agree that in the end all are not saved and that God knows the end from the beginning. That does not address the point of difference.
2. Where we differ is that OSAS goes "beyond the text" to argue that those that are given (in that forknowledge context of the statement) includes those who at the end DO NOT BELIEVE. Which is a horrible wrench of the text.
Which only dooms the OSAS position for anyone claiming that someone is saved who "used to believe but no longer believes" because in vs 40 Christ insists that they DO believe.
He also argues that the salvation that he offers is based on the future resurrection.
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
wrong - it is "all men without qualification" there is no qualifier - it is ALL.
The statements are global - and without restriction.
Those who choose to serve Christ are accepted - without restriction.
All are drawn - without qualification.
All can agree that an "unqualified ALL" does not restrict itself to "jews".
Neither does "all Jews plus one gentile".
Your argument fails in the inconvenient details of the text.
lack of content in your post ... "noted".
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Walter
New Member
Bob, it is so wonderful how you divide this section of scripture at the very point it should not be divided. For example, you arbitrarily select John 6:35-36 and divide it from John 6:37-40 when in fact verse 37-40 is the response to those he addresses in verse 36 explaining why they do not believe in him. This section (Jn 6:35-40) is similar to John 10:26-30 where your kind often divide John 10:25-26 from John 10:27-30 for the same reason that verses 27-30 explains why those addressed in verses 25-26 do not believe in him.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
Likewise in John 6:35-36 Jesus draws a conclusion about those who are listening and responding to him. The conclusion is they have both seen and heard him but continue in unbelief. John 6:37-40 gives His reason why they can both hear him and continue in unbelief just as John 10:28-30 give His reason why those in John 10:25-27 do not believe in him.
Even though what I have said is obvious to any objective reader, you are not going to accept it because it destroys what you want to beleive and you cannot believe it because God has not yet given you the ability to believe the truth.
Instead, you are going to continue the silly rediculous eisgetical nonsense that interprets John 6:37-40 to mean exactly the opposite of what Christ says about ALL that the Father gives him - "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" to mean "I SHALL LOSE SOME."
Instead of following the obvious cause and effect relationship methodically presented by Christ where verse 37-40 is Christ's explanation for their unbelief in verse 36, which is, those in verse 36 were NEVER GIVEN TO HIM BY THE FATHER because "ALL" who are given to him by the Father COME TO HIM and they will not. Here "come" is effectual because "ALL" given do it and "OF ALL" those given "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."
Verses 35-36 are in direct contrast to verse 40 and the difference is found in the cause and effect relationships laid down in verses 37-39.
However, you are a spiritually blind man who cannot see the obvious, even when it is broken down in peace meal and explained in baby steps to you.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
Likewise in John 6:35-36 Jesus draws a conclusion about those who are listening and responding to him. The conclusion is they have both seen and heard him but continue in unbelief. John 6:37-40 gives His reason why they can both hear him and continue in unbelief just as John 10:28-30 give His reason why those in John 10:25-27 do not believe in him.
Even though what I have said is obvious to any objective reader, you are not going to accept it because it destroys what you want to beleive and you cannot believe it because God has not yet given you the ability to believe the truth.
Instead, you are going to continue the silly rediculous eisgetical nonsense that interprets John 6:37-40 to mean exactly the opposite of what Christ says about ALL that the Father gives him - "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" to mean "I SHALL LOSE SOME."
Instead of following the obvious cause and effect relationship methodically presented by Christ where verse 37-40 is Christ's explanation for their unbelief in verse 36, which is, those in verse 36 were NEVER GIVEN TO HIM BY THE FATHER because "ALL" who are given to him by the Father COME TO HIM and they will not. Here "come" is effectual because "ALL" given do it and "OF ALL" those given "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."
Verses 35-36 are in direct contrast to verse 40 and the difference is found in the cause and effect relationships laid down in verses 37-39.
However, you are a spiritually blind man who cannot see the obvious, even when it is broken down in peace meal and explained in baby steps to you.
Bob,do you have limited or unlimited free will?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Limited free will. I cannot choose to "go to heaven today and have lunch". (for example).
Even the lost have "supernaturally enabled free will" because God draws all unto Him.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe
1. Obviously Jesus is not arguing that God is at fault for failing to cause them to "believe".
2. This is not a text promising salvation to those who “do not believe” but who at least “used to believe at one time” the way some versions of OSAS would have it.
John 6
37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day
No chapter division inserted by me - just a comment that points out the obvious - God is not saying "whosoever I just so happen to arbitrarily select ..." rather God is making the case "whosoever believes" in the same way as Rev 3:22 "he who hears my voice and opens the door".
In Acts 2 - many of the Priests then choose to hear and believe.
in Matt 23 Jesus said "O how I wanted to save your children... but you would not".
Thus in John 6:40 salvation is not promised to those who do not believe - but if they "open the door" (as we see in Acts 2) they are accepted.
in Christ,
Bob
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe
1. Obviously Jesus is not arguing that God is at fault for failing to cause them to "believe".
2. This is not a text promising salvation to those who “do not believe” but who at least “used to believe at one time” the way some versions of OSAS would have it.
John 6
37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day
No chapter division inserted by me - just a comment that points out the obvious - God is not saying "whosoever I just so happen to arbitrarily select ..." rather God is making the case "whosoever believes" in the same way as Rev 3:22 "he who hears my voice and opens the door".
In Acts 2 - many of the Priests then choose to hear and believe.
in Matt 23 Jesus said "O how I wanted to save your children... but you would not".
Thus in John 6:40 salvation is not promised to those who do not believe - but if they "open the door" (as we see in Acts 2) they are accepted.
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Walter
New Member
You not only divide verses 35-36 from verses 37-40 but you change the subject. Their unbelief is stated in verse 36 and their refusal to come to Christ. Verse 37 denies they were "given" by the Father to come to the Son because all that are given do come to the Son and "of all" that are given NONE are lost and that equals all given to the Son come and all who come NONE ARE LOST.
You can deny this all day long and twist and turn it as much as you please, but it will say the same thing after your long gone. Verse 36 YOU DO NOT COME TO ME - Verse 37 WHY YOU DO NOT COME TO ME BECAUSE YOU WERE NEVER GIVEN BY THE FATHER TO COME TO ME BECAUSE ALL THOSE GIVEN BY THE FATHER COME TO ME AND I LOSE NONE OF THEM.
Bob, every interpretation you give only makes you call Christ a liar - He says I SHALL LOSE NOTHING and you claim HE SHALL LOSE SOME. Let God be true and Bob a liar.