NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I do not think that forgiveness is based on another's repentance, but on mine alone. I think we may be closer to the same page than we may think at first appearance.
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The most despicable thing done to you by a Christian
- Thread starter Bro. Ruben
- Start date
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Ok, so we agree on that point
but, what I think you said, elaborating, is that if you forgive a person then you should be willing to trust that person again - my question in relation to that is - if that person has not repented of the actions against you, what makes you think you can or should trust them again? and even if they appear to be repentant, do you automatically trust, or do you wait to see if a real change of heart has occurred?
ccrobinson
Active Member
I have a list of despicable things done to me by a so-called Christian woman. Here's just one of them. She wrote an anonymous letter to my MIL stating that she overheard me saying that I wanted my wife dead.
There are plenty more including threats, harrassment and extortion attempts. After I took her to HR for harrassment, I still had to work on the same floor of the office. Everytime I saw her, my heart rate and blood pressure soared. Even as I write this, I'm getting angry thinking about it.
Forgive her? I'd like to think so, but when one gets this angry, I know that I haven't. I know that I should, but that's a pretty tall order. Most of the time, I try not to think about what happened there.
Praise God I don't work there anymore.
There are plenty more including threats, harrassment and extortion attempts. After I took her to HR for harrassment, I still had to work on the same floor of the office. Everytime I saw her, my heart rate and blood pressure soared. Even as I write this, I'm getting angry thinking about it.
Forgive her? I'd like to think so, but when one gets this angry, I know that I haven't. I know that I should, but that's a pretty tall order. Most of the time, I try not to think about what happened there.
Praise God I don't work there anymore.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Ok, so we agree on that point
but, what I think you said, elaborating, is that if you forgive a person then you should be willing to trust that person again - my question in relation to that is - if that person has not repented of the actions against you, what makes you think you can or should trust them again? and even if they appear to be repentant, do you automatically trust, or do you wait to see if a real change of heart has occurred? </font>[/QUOTE]I have been considering that - he did assure me that he was not coming back into our lives to cause trouble, he has missed the Bible teaching he got here. I took that as an admission that he did do wrong the first time so am choosing to truct, though guardedly.
eloidalmanutha
New Member
ok - cool - as Jesus said:
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Years ago, I was told by a street preacher in Hollywood that I was going to Hell for visiting Grauman's Chinese Theater. I told him I'd pray for him, and hope that his words don't end up pushing people away from Christ. Interestingly, when I said that, I got applause from passersby. But that mans' words sat with me for several days, and they hurt. I eentually let it go, and learned to forgive him. Who'd have thought that a comment from a stranger on the street could hurt like that??Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
Truly, to be offended and wronged by an unbeliever is more understandable. But by a Christian, it is harder to accept.
Since then, the atmosphere of downtown Hollywood has changed. There are still street preachers there, but they're much more loving and less condemning. Some of that may have to do with the fact that downtown Hollywood has been experiencing a bit of revitalization. The more "seedy" shops are disappearing one by one, and being replaced with more glamourous and friendly business. Crime has plummeted, and one can assuredly walk the streets these days without fear.
I think a bit of prudence and discernment are in order here. Biblical trust is not to be blind.
If someone borrows $1000 from you, and never pays it back, you can forgive the debt. But if they ask you for another loan, are you going to trust them to pay that back? Of course not. Forgiveness and trust do not require lack of judgement to be genuine.
Salamander
New Member
No way, my wife is better looking than yours, and did you
shave?
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Nope - my goatee has gone grey .
Although I don't know how my beautiful wife got into the discussion.
.Although I don't know how my beautiful wife got into the discussion.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
There is a stipulation on forgiveness stated by Jesus Christ Himself.
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
But then, we read this verse also stated by the Lord...
Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Seems that the brother must repent first, but then, if you don't forgive him, your heavenly Father will not forgive you.
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
But then, we read this verse also stated by the Lord...
Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Seems that the brother must repent first, but then, if you don't forgive him, your heavenly Father will not forgive you.
SFC quotes scripture rightly. However, as I said earlier, forgiveness does not usurp prudence, nor does it trump discernment.
If someone borrows $1000 from you, and never pays it back, you can forgive the debt. But if they ask you for another loan, are you going to trust them to pay that back? Of course not. A wise man, though he has previously forgiven his brother, will not loan him more money. Forgiveness and trust do not require lack of judgement to be genuine.
If someone borrows $1000 from you, and never pays it back, you can forgive the debt. But if they ask you for another loan, are you going to trust them to pay that back? Of course not. A wise man, though he has previously forgiven his brother, will not loan him more money. Forgiveness and trust do not require lack of judgement to be genuine.
I guess the most despicable thing done to me by a christian was almost a year ago when my wife divorced out of our marriage.
No adultery. No physical abuse. No mental/emotional abuse. Nothing
She quit going to church and feeding on the scriptures, and then just "went off the deep end" and started taking advice from places like...
"The Womens Channel"(cable TV)
Country music songs.
Country music videos.
Her lost friends at work.
Voila! Divorce is suddenly an option.
Have I forgiven her?
Of course I have. Forgiving becomes easier when we think of it not as something we "do" at some appointed time, but rather a heart attitude that we cultivate 24/7.
We still work at the same place where we met 12 years ago. Our jobs cause us to cross paths a lot and people who see us together say "you two seem like your still married!"
We laugh, we joke around. I took care of her dog for her when she had to be out of town for a couple of days, and she told me if I get sick she'll come over and take care of me.
The time will come when she will reap the fruit of her mistake, she cant avoid that. And when that occurs who knows what might happen. We may very well remarry someday.
But not if she waits until after God possibly brings someone else into my life.
(I am one who agrees with the view that the scriptures do support remarriage for one who is the victim of divorce, if they arent gifted for singleness)
Anyway, thats about the only really "despicable" thing I can think of. For someone to commit divorce is pretty high up there, in my view. I guess I've been blessed in that regard. Some of the horror stories I've read on this thread are just heartbreaking.
btw, just last Sunday someone at church told me that someone in her family decided to tell her that she was the reason her mother died.
What a wonderful thing to tell someone. This person told me that she knew it wasnt true, but even if it were...why tell someone that?
Grace and peace,
Mike
No adultery. No physical abuse. No mental/emotional abuse. Nothing
She quit going to church and feeding on the scriptures, and then just "went off the deep end" and started taking advice from places like...
"The Womens Channel"(cable TV)
Country music songs.
Country music videos.
Her lost friends at work.
Voila! Divorce is suddenly an option.
Have I forgiven her?
Of course I have. Forgiving becomes easier when we think of it not as something we "do" at some appointed time, but rather a heart attitude that we cultivate 24/7.
We still work at the same place where we met 12 years ago. Our jobs cause us to cross paths a lot and people who see us together say "you two seem like your still married!"
We laugh, we joke around. I took care of her dog for her when she had to be out of town for a couple of days, and she told me if I get sick she'll come over and take care of me.
The time will come when she will reap the fruit of her mistake, she cant avoid that. And when that occurs who knows what might happen. We may very well remarry someday.
But not if she waits until after God possibly brings someone else into my life.
(I am one who agrees with the view that the scriptures do support remarriage for one who is the victim of divorce, if they arent gifted for singleness)
Anyway, thats about the only really "despicable" thing I can think of. For someone to commit divorce is pretty high up there, in my view. I guess I've been blessed in that regard. Some of the horror stories I've read on this thread are just heartbreaking.
btw, just last Sunday someone at church told me that someone in her family decided to tell her that she was the reason her mother died.
What a wonderful thing to tell someone. This person told me that she knew it wasnt true, but even if it were...why tell someone that?
Grace and peace,
Mike
Johnv writes:
"SFC quotes scripture rightly. However, as I said earlier, forgiveness does not usurp prudence, nor does it trump discernment"
David used prudence when King Saul was trying to kill him. Even though Saul invited David back to his camp saying he was forgiven a couple of times, David eventually went to the land of the Philistines to get away from Saul realizing one day he might kill David. David had forgiven Saul, but he didn't expose himself to more danger. Forgiveness is one thing, but trust is another.
"SFC quotes scripture rightly. However, as I said earlier, forgiveness does not usurp prudence, nor does it trump discernment"
David used prudence when King Saul was trying to kill him. Even though Saul invited David back to his camp saying he was forgiven a couple of times, David eventually went to the land of the Philistines to get away from Saul realizing one day he might kill David. David had forgiven Saul, but he didn't expose himself to more danger. Forgiveness is one thing, but trust is another.
hillclimber
New Member
I try to see things just as you point out in this thread Roger. I can't seem to completely forget it all, but nearly so.
I in particular, agree with the part about Jesus forgiving me. much much much It makes it impossible to not forgive others.
I'm not sure if this is despicable to a large degree, but it occured here. I just joined this board and had been a Baptist for many years. A recent change at my church, the long time Pastor being pushed out, led me to seek another church.
I would only have gone to a church that was doctrinally like Baptist or Independent Fundemental, Someone suggested a Church which I stared attending. The name was not indicative of a denomination but the teaching, preaching and statement of faith was the same as Baptist. I was to find that it's affiliation was Christian Missionary Alliance. They seemed more like a Baptist Church than the one I was at. They have no agenda. There emphasis is on missionary work. I found they have more members outside the U.S. than in it.
Anyway, I received notice that since I was no longer a Baptist I could not post on the Baptist part of this board. Well I still worship and believe as when I was in a building that happened to have a sign that said Baptist. Is it apparent that even though my beliefs are Baptist, because I worship in a different location with a differnt sign, that somehow I can't even participate in discussion with brothers and sisters here.
It's not like I became a Liberal or New Ager, I'm a Conservative Christian who believes in literal historical/grammetical intrepretion that every word in the Bible is inspired and inerrant and that Jesus is my Savior.
Come to think of it it is despicable. In hope there is not a check like that when we get to heaven. Will God say you loved and worshiped me strictly according to my word and commands but are not officially a certain persausion, we won't talk to you. I bet Jesus finds this despicable. I want to contribute and learn more about him and am denied participation.
A mn I work with I am always wittnessing to, he keeps telling me he wants nothing to do with Christians, there the first to turn against you. I would not even mention this to him. It would prove his point.
I would only have gone to a church that was doctrinally like Baptist or Independent Fundemental, Someone suggested a Church which I stared attending. The name was not indicative of a denomination but the teaching, preaching and statement of faith was the same as Baptist. I was to find that it's affiliation was Christian Missionary Alliance. They seemed more like a Baptist Church than the one I was at. They have no agenda. There emphasis is on missionary work. I found they have more members outside the U.S. than in it.
Anyway, I received notice that since I was no longer a Baptist I could not post on the Baptist part of this board. Well I still worship and believe as when I was in a building that happened to have a sign that said Baptist. Is it apparent that even though my beliefs are Baptist, because I worship in a different location with a differnt sign, that somehow I can't even participate in discussion with brothers and sisters here.
It's not like I became a Liberal or New Ager, I'm a Conservative Christian who believes in literal historical/grammetical intrepretion that every word in the Bible is inspired and inerrant and that Jesus is my Savior.
Come to think of it it is despicable. In hope there is not a check like that when we get to heaven. Will God say you loved and worshiped me strictly according to my word and commands but are not officially a certain persausion, we won't talk to you. I bet Jesus finds this despicable. I want to contribute and learn more about him and am denied participation.
A mn I work with I am always wittnessing to, he keeps telling me he wants nothing to do with Christians, there the first to turn against you. I would not even mention this to him. It would prove his point.
Without a doubt it was one of our former pastors converting to hyperfundamentalism/pastoral authoritarianism and disciplining us out of the church when my husband chose a different career path than what this pastor had determined was the will of God for him. But we weren't the first ones treated in that manner and definitely weren't the last. And he has hurt fellow pastors so much more, and above all his wife, with his horrendous treatment of her under the guise of making her into a "Proverbs 31 woman". Anyway...
I appreciate the discussion of forgiveness in this thread - very edifying. And have we forgiven him? Oh, yes! yes! But I guess having been down that road is what has stirred me up a bit emotionally this last week reading one of our new poster's "essays". He and this former pastor of ours could be twins...or, I'm afraid, clones.
I appreciate the discussion of forgiveness in this thread - very edifying. And have we forgiven him? Oh, yes! yes! But I guess having been down that road is what has stirred me up a bit emotionally this last week reading one of our new poster's "essays". He and this former pastor of ours could be twins...or, I'm afraid, clones.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
TFC, regardless how you feel, this is a baptist board. They opened the Other Christian Denominations thread for people who are not Baptist to post in.
The forum rules explicitly tell all this and should have been read prior to hitting the 'I agree' button.
Do we sign contracts without reading them over?
The forum rules explicitly tell all this and should have been read prior to hitting the 'I agree' button.
Do we sign contracts without reading them over?
Wow. Some pretty horrible stuff has been done.
I guess the worst thing that has been done to me is when I was leading a Women's Bible Class about 5 years ago. The head teacher, for some reason did not want me teaching under her, and made life very difficult for me.
We had teacher's meetings every Tuesday and went over the lesson, so during the class time with the women we were teaching, we could make sure we understood everything. Well, every time I answered a question during the teacher's meetings, this lady told me I was wrong. Her attitude toward me was very ugly and hateful. Eventually, she invited me to lunch and told me that I should not come back next year in a teaching position, but should come back as a door opener! I was shocked, to say the least.
My group of ladies had the highest attendance of any class. I was never late, always did my lesson and understood it well, and never missed a class. She, on the other hand, did the worst job of teaching of anyone I have ever heard, and several times did not bring her book/Bible/materials because she forgot them. Many times, she did not understand even the simplest things from Scripture. Her lectures were pitiful.
Needless to say, I did not return to that particular group. The next year, she was asked to leave.
Do I forgive her? Of course. Even tho what she did really hurt. She took a group of 150 women and caused over half of them to leave. But I forgive her because I believe that God allowed this to happen to teach me (and her!) more about Himself, and to conform us to His image. I guess the lesson to be learned is not to put spiritually immature people in positions of leadership.
I guess the worst thing that has been done to me is when I was leading a Women's Bible Class about 5 years ago. The head teacher, for some reason did not want me teaching under her, and made life very difficult for me.
We had teacher's meetings every Tuesday and went over the lesson, so during the class time with the women we were teaching, we could make sure we understood everything. Well, every time I answered a question during the teacher's meetings, this lady told me I was wrong. Her attitude toward me was very ugly and hateful. Eventually, she invited me to lunch and told me that I should not come back next year in a teaching position, but should come back as a door opener! I was shocked, to say the least.
My group of ladies had the highest attendance of any class. I was never late, always did my lesson and understood it well, and never missed a class. She, on the other hand, did the worst job of teaching of anyone I have ever heard, and several times did not bring her book/Bible/materials because she forgot them. Many times, she did not understand even the simplest things from Scripture. Her lectures were pitiful.
Needless to say, I did not return to that particular group. The next year, she was asked to leave.
Do I forgive her? Of course. Even tho what she did really hurt. She took a group of 150 women and caused over half of them to leave. But I forgive her because I believe that God allowed this to happen to teach me (and her!) more about Himself, and to conform us to His image. I guess the lesson to be learned is not to put spiritually immature people in positions of leadership.
TFC said...
I am not currently a baptist, but I have had Baptist churches as my home church a couple of times in the past.
(I was never disfellowshipped, and I might even still be on the "membership roll" for all I know)
And currently I spend a lot of time fellowshipping at a Baptist church because I have some close friends who go there.
In adition, I am very sympathetic to baptist doctrine. Such as: I am very convinced of our eternal security, the autonomy of the local body of believers, justification through faith alone, immersion after salvation as a "picture" of what has already taken place, etc etc etc.
I sent an email several months ago to the "authorities" here and explained what I just posted and asked if I could post on the "Baptist" boards here.
They said yes. They gave me permission to.
So far I havent, mainly because I enjoy the "other denominations" boards so much, but they said I could so I might sometime.
(My profile reflects the non-denominational pentecostal fellowship I am a part of, and then says "and also baptist" referring to that Baptist church that I frequent that I mentioned earlier.)
Mike
StandingFirm said...
Well, thats interesting.
I am not currently a baptist, but I have had Baptist churches as my home church a couple of times in the past.
(I was never disfellowshipped, and I might even still be on the "membership roll" for all I know)
And currently I spend a lot of time fellowshipping at a Baptist church because I have some close friends who go there.
In adition, I am very sympathetic to baptist doctrine. Such as: I am very convinced of our eternal security, the autonomy of the local body of believers, justification through faith alone, immersion after salvation as a "picture" of what has already taken place, etc etc etc.
I sent an email several months ago to the "authorities" here and explained what I just posted and asked if I could post on the "Baptist" boards here.
They said yes. They gave me permission to.
So far I havent, mainly because I enjoy the "other denominations" boards so much, but they said I could so I might sometime.
(My profile reflects the non-denominational pentecostal fellowship I am a part of, and then says "and also baptist" referring to that Baptist church that I frequent that I mentioned earlier.)
Mike
Sarcasm, I guess, directed against my person, and the people I belong to, the Primitive Baptists, because of what we believe about certain things which do not conform to the "traditional" teachings.Originally posted by Bro. Ruben:
Without naming names.
What was it? And how did you find the way to forgive?
Truly, to be offended and wronged by an unbeliever is more understandable. But by a Christian, it is harder to accept.
Sarcasm right from the people who call themselves with the name of Christ, and who would defend the right of Moslems to believe what they believe, but not the right of Primitive Baptists to believe what we believe.
But, then, again, Jesus Christ was mocked by the people who believed what He believed, and finally crucified.