The Most Powerful Christian Song I Had Never Heard

[Mark Corbett]

1. There are two main words for "worship" in the NT: latrueo (worship/serve) and proskuneo (bow down to someone or something). So watching someone else sing is not worship, it's entertainment.

I think we've made progress. I now understand much more clearly that proskuneo does indeed mean to bow down to someone or something. I think you are correct about that. And so if a Greek speaking person in the early church who saw something similar (minus the modern technology) to what is seen the the Agnus Dei video posted above, they would not say, those people are "proskuneo-ing". But they would say (if they understood modern English), those people are praising God.

Yet, as you also correctly note, their are two different Greek words which are translated by the English word "worship". And again I now you see that you are correct to define latrueo as worship/serve. You acknowledge that the musicians in the video are latrueo-ing (worshiping) because the are using their gifts to serve God's people. But are the people who are not leading, but are singing, also latrueo-ing (worshiping)?

If I understand you correctly, you feel that they are not because the song is a praise song to God, not a song aimed to teach, admonish, or declare God's truth to other Christians. At this point I disagree for several reasons.

First, there actually is an example of latrueo being used of service to God where in the context the service explicitly pictured is praising God. It's not clear that the praise was sung, but adding music certainly would not make praise cease to be latrueo. Here is the example:

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 singing, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, robed in white, and where have they come from?"
14 I said to him, "Sir, you are the one that knows." Then he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship [Greek: latrueo] him day and night within his temple, and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them.
​

The people in white robes before the throne are worshiping God. They are serving Him. They may do other types of service before the throne, but the only type of serving God mentioned in this context is their praise recorded in vs. 10. This is one of the two Greek words you identified as being translated into English as "worship", although it can also be translated "serve".

So I still believe it is accurate to say that the people in the crowd who were singing praise to God in the video were worshiping.

 

[agedman]

Neither of the videos posted are of musical value other than fluff that is a temporary bling and soon discarded.

There is no worship in repetition that becomes vain, and vanity is in both videos.


Do worship leaders not understand the very attributes of the ungodly worship of false gods while endlessly using incantations on the same rhythm, melody and words is that being displayed deceitfully in these two videos, and praised as the best ever heard?

Take away all the stage trappings and instruments and the songs fail for lack of substance. They are mere dribble that is worthless even for digestion.

It is time for worship leaders to provide musical meat. The assembly is growing intolerably weak on a milk diet, especially those lactose intolerant folk, for they have no sustenance from which to grow.

 

[Mark Corbett]

There is no worship in repetition that becomes vain, and vanity is in both videos.

Of course vain repetition is not meaningful worship. Vain repetition is a real danger to be avoided. This is made clear by this warning from Jesus:

NIV Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

But not all repetition is vain. Not all repetition is vain. Sometimes it serves a useful function such as emphasizing an important truth. A glorious example of useful repetition is found in Scripture:

NIV Revelation 4:8b Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."

Another example is given by our Lord in His fervent prayers:

ESV Matthew 26:44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again.

Many songs, including some of the Psalms, contain some intentional repetition.

So, when is repetition good and useful and when is it vain? We are not given detailed guidelines. I think this is one of many issues where the heart attitude of each individual is what makes the difference. It is right to warn of the possibility of vain repetition and empty worship. However, I think we should be slow and caution in judging whether another person's worship is vain and empty. In general, we (all of us, me too!) should be cautious when judging. I wrote about this in another thread, here:

Do not judge. (Except when you should.)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Generally speaking, worship in the Bible is not connected with singing. Usually one praises the Lord in song.
Few things irritate me more in a church than when someone says, "Now we will have a time of worship," and they sing six or seven songs one after the other. The whole of a church service should be worship, including the collection and the sermon.

God gave some to be apostles and some prophets etc. but He didn't give anyone to be a worship leader. The Pastor should give out a hymn, the musician(s) should play it and the congregation should sing it. All of them.

 

[Mark Corbett]

God gave some to be apostles and some prophets etc. but He didn't give anyone to be a worship leader. The Pastor should give out a hymn, the musician(s) should play it and the congregation should sing it. All of them.

I don't agree. Over 50 of the Psalms have an introduction similar to this one:

NIV Psalm 4:1 For the director of music. . . .

I don't see any reason that God would not equip and call people to lead a ministry of singing and music in a church. In fact, I'm convinced that He usually does so. In churches that have large music ministries and which can afford it, such a person may be a paid staff member. But even smaller churches, like the one where I serve, usually have someone fulfilling this role. I'm very thankful for the person who does this in our church.

There are many specific types of ministry not explicitly named in Scripture which God may equip someone for and call someone to.

But I do agree with part of what you said. I agree that all of the congregation should sing. This should be encouraged.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

NIV Psalm 4:1 For the director of music. . . .

That is for the liturgy of the Temple which God twice destroyed. Christian churches are based more on the synagogues, where it appears all singing was a capella ('in the chapel'). Singing is mandated in New Testament churches (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16) but musical instruments are not.

Spurgeon did not have musical accompaniment in the Metropolitan Tabernacle. A preceptor gave out a note and the congregation sang. [The only exception made was when Moody and Sankey came to the Tabernacle] With smaller congregations, no doubt it is as well to have a piano or keyboard to keep us in time and in tune, but that is all the music we need, and that is the only reason for it.

 

[agedman]

May I suggest the song in the link below as one of the better group leader worship songs for the assembly?

It is musically correct, doctrinally sound, very singable, instructive about true worship, and is truly worthy of use in a worship service, an evangelism service, a training service, personal devotion, and it has become very popular among the youth and adults in many assemblies.

Give it a listen with the lyrics on screen so the doctrine may be checked by both eyes as well as ears.

This link is a young person with just the guitar.

 

[Mark Corbett]

May I suggest the song in the link below as one of the better group leader worship songs for the assembly?

Thanks for sharing the links for "Bow the Knee". It is indeed a beautiful song, true to God's Word, and fitting for use in worship.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

That is for the liturgy of the Temple which God twice destroyed. Christian churches are based more on the synagogues, where it appears all singing was a capella ('in the chapel'). Singing is mandated in New Testament churches (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16) but musical instruments are not.

Spurgeon did not have musical accompaniment in the Metropolitan Tabernacle. A preceptor gave out a note and the congregation sang. [The only exception made was when Moody and Sankey came to the Tabernacle] With smaller congregations, no doubt it is as well to have a piano or keyboard to keep us in time and in tune, but that is all the music we need, and that is the only reason for it.

Nitpick: I think the literal translation of a capella is "without a head", though as a musical idiom it always refers to unaccompanied voice.

#47: "Bow the Knee" is beautiful and our choir loves to sing it. However, though the words are entirely consistent with scripture, the "meat-to-repeat" ratio approaches my personal limit. (This is totally taste-based, of course.) Even better among recent compositions is the doctrinally rich "His Robes For Mine", also beautiful musically.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Nitpick: I think the literal translation of a capella is "without a head", though as a musical idiom it always refers to unaccompanied voice.

Acapella

 

[agedman]

Nitpick: I think the literal translation of a capella is "without a head", though as a musical idiom it always refers to unaccompanied voice.

#47: "Bow the Knee" is beautiful and our choir loves to sing it. However, though the words are entirely consistent with scripture, the "meat-to-repeat" ratio approaches my personal limit. (This is totally taste-based, of course.) Even better among recent compositions is the doctrinally rich "His Robes For Mine", also beautiful musically.

Oh, "His Robes for Mine" is outstanding, too.

For those unfamiliar, here is an interesting presentation. The head movement may be distracting but the message is truthful and doctrinally sound.

 

[John of Japan]

I think we've made progress. I now understand much more clearly that proskuneo does indeed mean to bow down to someone or something. I think you are correct about that. And so if a Greek speaking person in the early church who saw something similar (minus the modern technology) to what is seen the the Agnus Dei video posted above, they would not say, those people are "proskuneo-ing". But they would say (if they understood modern English), those people are praising God.

Now you've got it.

Yet, as you also correctly note, their are two different Greek words which are translated by the English word "worship". And again I now you see that you are correct to define latrueo as worship/serve. You acknowledge that the musicians in the video are latrueo-ing (worshiping) because the are using their gifts to serve God's people. But are the people who are not leading, but are singing, also latrueo-ing (worshiping)?

Actually, there are other NT words for worship, but my wording was that those two are the "main words."

The only way that those watching the musicians can be worshiping is if they are bowing down (proskuneo) in their hearts in prayer. I consider prayer (but not simple praise) to be worship. But from the video you cannot tell if they are praying in their hearts. They might be--or they might just be tracking with the music, enjoying the entertainment. Because whatever else he does, Michael Smith is entertaining (which might be either good or bad). I've been in the Christian entertainment business--stage hand, martial arts demonstrator--and know what it looks like.

If I understand you correctly, you feel that they are not because the song is a praise song to God, not a song aimed to teach, admonish, or declare God's truth to other Christians. At this point I disagree for several reasons.

First, there actually is an example of latrueo being used of service to God where in the context the service explicitly pictured is praising God. It's not clear that the praise was sung, but adding music certainly would not make praise cease to be latrueo. Here is the example:

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 singing, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, robed in white, and where have they come from?"
14 I said to him, "Sir, you are the one that knows." Then he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship [Greek: latrueo] him day and night within his temple, and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them.
​

The people in white robes before the throne are worshiping God. They are serving Him. They may do other types of service before the throne, but the only type of serving God mentioned in this context is their praise recorded in vs. 10. This is one of the two Greek words you identified as being translated into English as "worship", although it can also be translated "serve".

So I still believe it is accurate to say that the people in the crowd who were singing praise to God in the video were worshiping.

Good. Now you are exegeting instead of orating, as you did in your OP. However, there are problems with your exegesis.

1. There are two locations mentioned. They are said to be praising before (enopion, used locationally) the throne of God. Then there is the conjunction. The next clause says that they are in (en with the dative, a location) the temple. So there are two separate places.

2. Nowhere else in the NT does latreuo occur as meaning praise, if indeed it occurs here. So to prove your point exegetically, you have to find a place where latreuo is clearly talking about praise. Latreuo is always some kind of action, but praise simply moves the lips.

In Japan, I have many times seen a Shinto priest in his robes sprinkling holy water to bring good fortune at the beginning of a construction project, or a Buddhist priest drive up in his snazzy car (they are rich), and get in his robes to go in and hold a ceremony honoring the dead. They are serving their gods when they do that: latreuo.

On the other hand, I once had an old woman bow down to me in the zarei (seated bow) while I was standing, and call me a god. I immediately disabused her, because she was not doing a bow of greeting but of worship: proskuneo.

That's what idolatrous worship looks like in the raw. But they don't sing, they chant. In other words, they don't praise their gods, they only serve them. So this is a practical reason, and I think Biblical and vital, to keep the meaning of praise separate from worship, as I believe it is in the Bible, because it is unique to the worship of the true God. There is no need to fight for praise being a part of worship, because praise in and of itself is extremely important.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Now you've got it.

A couple of (possibly final) thoughts.

We've been mostly discussing the meaning of the word "worship" in the Bible, and the Greek words most often translated worship. You've helped to sharpen my understanding.

When it comes to English, we are faced with the reality that the word "worship" has come to refer to "singing songs to or about God". Not exclusively. But that is certainly a widely used meaning now.

So when communicating with other Christians in English, we will want to help them align their usage of words, and more importantly their thoughts and understanding of what the Bible teaches, with the Bible. At the same time, we want to communicate in ways that are easy for the average Christian to quickly understand our meaning. It took me a bit to catch your meaning, even though I'm probably better equipped to understand what you were saying than many Christians are.

I don't think it is wrong for people to use the English word "worship" with its current English range of meaning. But I do think it is useful to teach people the Biblical meaning of the various Greek words translated worship, and thus to help them understand the Biblical concept of worship more fully and accurately.

Finally, if you have time, let me (and others) know what you think about the new thread I started, in large part as a result of our conversation:

Do We Bow Down Enough in Church?

 

[John of Japan]

A couple of (possibly final) thoughts.

We've been mostly discussing the meaning of the word "worship" in the Bible, and the Greek words most often translated worship. You've helped to sharpen my understanding.

When it comes to English, we are faced with the reality that the word "worship" has come to refer to "singing songs to or about God". Not exclusively. But that is certainly a widely used meaning now.

So when communicating with other Christians in English, we will want to help them align their usage of words, and more importantly their thoughts and understanding of what the Bible teaches, with the Bible. At the same time, we want to communicate in ways that are easy for the average Christian to quickly understand our meaning. It took me a bit to catch your meaning, even though I'm probably better equipped to understand what you were saying than many Christians are.

Point taken. Thanks for your good attitude.

I don't think it is wrong for people to use the English word "worship" with its current English range of meaning. But I do think it is useful to teach people the Biblical meaning of the various Greek words translated worship, and thus to help them understand the Biblical concept of worship more fully and accurately.

Good points. Keep going in this direction.

Finally, if you have time, let me (and others) know what you think about the new thread I started, in large part as a result of our conversation:

Do We Bow Down Enough in Church?

Alas, I'm out of time this week for this thread and your new thread. I have to get a quiz ready for tomorrow, a test ready for Friday, etc.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Oh, "His Robes for Mine" is outstanding, too.

For those unfamiliar, here is an interesting presentation. The head movement may be distracting but the message is truthful and doctrinally sound.

Thank you for that blessing. Apart from having a full two-octave range, Mr. Everson sings so as to blend (in this case, with himself), which is my strong preference - I've sung in church choirs for over 50 years but really learned to sing in the Barbershop Society during the 1970s.. And the head movements were not a bother, as most of the time I was not watching, just enjoying the harmonies and reveling in the clearly enunciated message of praise and thanksgiving.

If you've not already done so, I recommend doing a search in the song and author. I found his verse-by-verse explanation of his intent in writing it made my understanding of the words richer, and my thanks to the Lord even greater.