The mountains of freewill and election arguing about whose eternal life valley it is

Adam was born? Who was his mother? Adam was created and God concluded that it was very good!

God cast down satan from the heavens to the earth, God placed his "very good created man" in jeopardy from the very beginning.

Now about sin. If you exceed the speed limit, which you will agree is a sin, do you change? What about you changes? What about you becomes altered? If your sin does not change you, why do you insist that Adam's sin changed him? He remained created man made in the image of God! ALL of his offspring carry that same image of God, it is in our make up from the creation of the first man.

The bible says we are born sinful because Adam sinned, and sin entered the world through him. Sinful by the way does not mean FULL OF SIN! Instead, it means with a propensity to sin. Look at all the ways Adam could have sinned, but the only sin that Adam had was disobedience of God. That disobedience severed the pure and holy relationship that God had with man, whom scripture says God walked with and talked with, breaking the trust between God and man. God remains trustworthy, man does not! No man's spirit did not die either, because once again Jesus, God the son, told us that the spirit is the life of the flesh and if the spirit is dead the flesh dies with it. But the spirit of man did not die, only the relationship man had with God died. Man has no means unto himself of regaining that relationship. but man can through hearing and believing have faith in God, and thus be born in the spirit again, that is have a renewed spirit, and thus a renewed relationship with God through faith, followed by confession of sin, and repentance from sinning. That folks is called regeneration! the new birth.

By the way, you will notice that Adam lived nearly a millennium or 10 times longer than modern man lives. But because of sin, Adam could not live forever because he chose the wrong tree! (a point of speculation).

Its a matter of perspective. From God's perspective, our spirit is dead due to sin. Furthermore, God established that, "it is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment". That is the first death. But there is a Lake of fire described in Revelation 20 that is called "the second death". All mankind faces the first death! But that death is merely the separation of man's spirit from the flesh. Only those who lack faith in God face the second death! They are judged because they don't believe in God or do not believe in God the son (John 3:18).

Man's salvation is not being saved from the first death, it is being saved from the second death (the death of spirit). So from God's perspective man's spirit is dead until, through faith, man's spirit comes alive with and in Christ. It is through faith that we have our salvation! You see, Jesus said in John 3:18 that those who believe are not JUDGED! If not judged, how is one sentenced to death?

Yes, I agree through faith in what Jesus spoke to us and the promises he made that we can have hope in, we have life. But even so. Our flesh could not live without a spirit. Everything about man is about man's spirit. Cows have flesh without spirit. If man did not have spirit man would be nothing more than a two legged cow/bull. So it is our spirit that distinguishes us from the animals, and which by and for God gave man dominion over all other species.

Oh! Jews are men are they not? We are men are we not? Doesn't the fact that Jesus, who is God the son, was walking and talking among men and telling men that if they have faith...... I find nothing that disqualifies any of us from having the ability that God the son spoke of in the Jews.

The bible is speaking of a specific faith! I am saying that man has faith, or at least the ability to have faith in whatever man wants to have faith in. My gracious look at all the ruins in Athens, and Rome, and Egypt, all shrines to various Gods. Man has had the ability to have faith in gods, since God created man. The difference is in the object of one's faith. So, when the bible speaks of unregenerate man "without faith", it is speaking of a specific faith that REGENERATES man, and that is FAITH in the one LIVING GOD, and God the SON.

Who's election do you want me to address? God has election, man has election. God being God, can elect anything and or any one for any reason. Man being man must remain within the environment God created for man, for his elections. God has elected certain persons such as the Pharaoh, and lowly Judas to meet certain conditions. Pharaoh resisted God as long as he could before God met him up close and personal and took his first born son, and ultimately his very life. Judas was elected to fulfill the prophesy about betraying the Christ. Noah was elected as a righteous man to carry on the human race that God determined to destroy. I could go on but you get the message. Between Adam and the Christ there must have been at least a Billion humans who lived. How many of them are mentioned by name in scripture as being "elected" by God for a purpose? A hundred? two hundred? a thousand? Divide a thousand by a billion, and you get a decimal point with 8 zeros to the left of a 1 (.000000001) or .0000001% of the population of the world from Adam to Christ were Elected by God for a purpose! Even if you count all of the Jews who ever lived, Adam to Jesus, only .00001% of them were elected by God for a particular purpose. You expect us to believe that today God elects a greater percentage of the population than when he was working directly with His chosen race?

Why do you ignore scripture and insist that atonement saves? Not one person who has ever been saved has been saved because of atonement. ALL who are saved are saved through faith, because Jesus atoned for sin, so that man need not die for sin, but can instead through faith have everlasting life. And that everlasting life is available to WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN JESUS, who is God the Son.

The bible is not wrong, man's understanding of it is!

Your wife "gives you a smile". Now that can mean that your wife took the smile from her face and handed it to you so that you now possess her smile. Or, it could mean that your wife's feelings toward you brought a smile to her face for you to see without ever handing you anything tangible.

Your Wife loves you, and you know it, but you cannot receive her love as a transferred commodity, where she has less and you have more after the transfer. She cannot give you her love, but she can love you, and give you tokens that indicate her love for you. Well neither can God give you his love as a transferable commodity.

God cannot give you Grace as a transferable commodity either, but He certainly behaves toward you and all of us with favor, or none of us would exist!

NO! Perseverance in FAITH IS achieved by staying in the word and by doing good works, faith without works is dead. Salvation is the gift given to those who have faith in god at the end of this natural life!

No I do not think the bible is wrong in Ephesians 2:8-10, I think your interpretation of it is wrong! Grace is the environment, Faith is the requirement, Salvation is the Gift given that cannot be earned by anything we do.

Your implications are pretty thick!

NO! Man is not NOT TOTALLY depraved, Man has a propensity toward sinning, a propensity that can be overcome through faith in God.

Atonement for SIN is UNLIMITED! Not one human has ever been saved by atonement...God saves man! Atonement made if possible for EVERY MAN through FAITH to be saved by God, because atonement dealt with sin, man's killer! With the penalty of sin paid in full by God the Son, Sin is no longer a factor in man's salvation! No man dies because the penalty of sin is death. Man dies due to lack of FAITH in GOD and for no other reason! Man's actions are the result of the man's faith, or lack there of!

The old testament says of the Jews that "none seek after God"! It does not say that of the gentiles, who are the ones who are eager to hear and believe. It is because God is being gracious to man that man can hear God's word and come to faith in God and thereby be save by God.

I did not say that a saved person can lose his salvation by what he does, it is because his faith changes! He believes something that is not true and that lie begets lies, which will eventually break the faith and cause the man to not be saved due to lack of faith in God, the Savior! Adam did not sin because he lost his faith in God, it is because he believed a lie that caused him to disobey God!

OK! so you believe that. I believe that God is faithful and keeps that which you give to him to keep, but it is not God that gives it back, it is we who demand it back from God, though our own changing faith that eventually becomes lack of faith.

 

mmmmmmm. bitesized. yummy.

 

Yes and No!

 

Who's doing the electing!

 

By having no faith in God!

 

That is OLD TESTAMENT spoken to the OLD COVENANT JEWS! Come of age and we will have a good conversation!

 

NO! he is losing his faith in the Christ! He needs do Nothing for that to happen!

 

If you are through playing your games, go read my post that I spent so much time responding to your stupid questions and challenge what I say

 

Hi Tcassidy;

The Calvinist before you.

You assume this is the constant state of man's mind. Man is made up of Body, soul, and spirit. And is capable of placing his mind in any direction he wishes. The natural man is not constantly focused on sin that is false. His mind is not constantly focused on the flesh either. Mans mind is not just imaginations.

It'll come around it always does and I got this from the Calvinist here on this board

Told you it would come around. Pure nonsense. Next you'll want to tell us this is because of His moral ability. Which his moral ability isn't even discussed in scripture. Romans 3 is a very poor support for total depravity. No where except where he was quoting from can we even know for sure what Paul is talking about. Rom 3 10-18 is what a sinner thinks of men of God. He doesn't believe men seek God He doesn't believe men can understand and is equality ready to tell you all of the faults of the men of God. These are nothing more than the rantings of a fool who says there is no God. He is being hypocritical.

Eternal life comes from and through Jesus Christ. Mans spirit is his life he cannot live with out it. Physical life Came from the Father. The Holy Spirit does not do regenerations Scripture never says He does.

No you first I'm already am aware of the limits of my faith.

That one is funny. How can a lost man be found at the same time He is lost. A well man doesn't need a doctor.

Well I wouldn't want to upset you.
Election is unconditional. Calvinist do not believe in this though if they did they would be able to explain the process and God would remaining a non- respecter of men. The way I see it if it is really unconditional it would have to be universal and at the same time not be an assurance for Salvation. Because man still has to trust first Eph 1:12.

I probably wasn't sure because of the lack of clear communication.
Be glad to hit it head on.
We are not saved by the atonement but the atonement only makes it possible. The atonement was Jesus being used as the escape goat all of our sins were placed on Him. It's not really very complicated. once sin was removed we were given offered the gift of Salvation.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
You see the word "might" This means you can have eternal life. If you will only have faith and trust in Him

God gives all men grace but Saving grace is only attainable through faith. Romans 5:2 It's the only grace we can stand in. Grace is favor. It isn't some magical savior. We are not saved by Grace alone. We are saved by Christ.

Through the entire Bible faith always precedes the gift of Salvation. Faith is hope for the things that are unseen. Belief is the knowing by experience. And yes I can name one and it is Mary.
Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
How about you showing one that was saved first before faith OK.

This grace in Romans 5:2 is stood in it doesn't say one thing about standing up for Christ but is standing in God's grace. I think maybe your reading into it what you clearly want to see, and not what is actually there.
These are so easy I can dance at the same time. Eph 2:8 and Romans 5:2 say the same things as I said before I do not disagree with the Bible I disagree with your interpretation of it. I have been reading most of my life and every single time God shows me something new.
Being justified by faith is being saved. It is the putting on of the righteousness of Christ You do agree on that don't you? It is in effect being justified by our faith in Christ.

You didn't offend me at all. I jsu believe in standing up for each other. After all He is my brother and I love him like one. Every Calvinist who comes here does the same thing to Wes. Wes isn't perfect neither am I. We are all still in the flesh. There is away you can find out all you want to know with out such tactics. You can scroll down the main menu to the archives. and read to your hearts content it's what I did
May Christ Shine His light On Us all;
Mike