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The mountains of freewill and election arguing about whose eternal life valley it is

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Christlifter, Mar 31, 2005.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I am beginning to suspect you don't have a clue what Biblical Soteriology is all about. If Christ's atoning death on the cross does not save, what do you think does save?
     
    #81 TCassidy, Apr 2, 2005
  2. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I am beginning to suspect you don't have a clue what Biblical Soteriology is all about. If Christ's atoning death on the cross does not save, what do you think does save? </font>[/QUOTE]Its not a matter of what I think, it is what the bible says, and it is an easy question to answer....God, the person, saves ALL who have faith in him!
     
    #82 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Okay, Wes, let's examine what you said in light of what the bible says and decide if you are right or the bible is right.

    Wes: "ATONEMENT HAS NOT SAVED A SINGLE HUMAN BEING!"

    Bible: 1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that [/b][/i]Christ died for our sins[/b][/i] according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    Wes says the atonement never saved anybody.

    The bible says the gospel by which we are saved is that Christ died on the cross for our sins.

    Christ dying on the cross for our sins is what we call "the atonement."

    So, the bible says the gospel, which is Christ dying for us, the atonement, is what saves us.

    Was says that is wrong and that the atonement never saved anybody.

    Who should we believe? Wes? Or the Bible?

    Once again I point out what has now become apparent to most of the readers of this thread, that Wes just doesn't understand what the bible says about salvation, atonement, regeneration, etc. Continuing this discussion with someone who denies the very basic doctrines of Christianity as well as denying the truth of the bible is, in my opinion, a waste of time.

    If Wes would like to open his heart and mind and listen to what the Spirit says then I will gladly explain the gospel to him from the bible. But if he continues his hard-hearted rejection of what the bible says, then I will shake the dust off my shoes and go on to more fruitful discussions with those who have a love for the word of God and an attitude of open-mindedness and a teachable spirit.

    Have a great Lord's day! [​IMG]
     
    #83 TCassidy, Apr 3, 2005
  4. Pitipat

    Pitipat New Member

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    Is GOD in any less control of our eternal destiny prior to our conversion then HE is after our conversion (Preservation of the saints)????
     
    #84 Pitipat, Apr 3, 2005
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    God's plan synopsized!

    God created-said it is "Good, Very good"

    Man sinned-disobeyed God

    God expelled man from his presence-notice, God did not alter man, only his relationship with man.

    Man sinned exceedingly

    God determined to wipe out man, but found one, Noah, with faith in God and Righteousness. God spared the one plus his family, destroyed the rest!

    Man started all over again from NOAH's Family.

    God gave man the law, through Moses.

    Man could not live by the law, but continued to sin

    God gave Himself to man in the form of Man named Jesus, the Christ.

    Man (chosen race) rejected him, and crucified him according to prophesy.

    Purpose of God in the form of man? Remove the penalty for sin imposed by God. Only God could do this.

    Crucifixion eliminated priesthood, and all human intercessors. Man can now interface directly with God. Even sinners can approach the throne of God with repentant spirit. And Sinners are aware of God! God makes it so.

    God expanded the scope of "redemption" to all mankind through His predestined Apostles of Jesus.

    Apostles built the church of Jesus Christ that is now global for the purpose of perpetuating and Disseminating HIS Word.

    God determined that by removing the penalty for sin. Sin is no longer a factor in His redemption of man, and that FAITH ALONE is what God looks for in man. Those who come to faith get their name written in the Book of Life. Those who come to faith, then fall away get their name blotted from the book of life.

    Faith in God has some side effects. Those who have faith in God are motivated to do what pleases God, according to God's word. Just as one who loves and has faith in a lifemate always strives to do what pleases the lifemate. For this reason Marriage, one man to one woman is God's ordained plan for man's perpetuation. Faith, love, and trust, are all ingredients to good marriage, and to Spiritual relationship with God.

    Man lives a natural life under God's grace.

    Man HEARS God's word.

    Man chooses to believe or reject God's word.

    Man dies from the natural life into the spirit life.

    Man is judged by man's deeds. Good deeds are rewarded, bad deeds (sins) are not rewarded.

    Rewards for deeds are laid at the feet of Jesus.
    Bad deeds leave nothing to place at Jesus's feet.

    Those who had FAITH in God in the natural life, are not Judged

    Those who lacked FAITH from the natural life are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

    So goes the synopsis of God's plan of redemption of man.

    After judgment, God lives among men, on the "new earth" in the New Jerusalem! The rest is the never ending story.
     
    #85 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
  6. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Tcassidy;
    You said genisis 6:5 says all of mans thoughts are evil.
    If you'll take another look you'll see that this is only what he imagines. All thoughts are not imagenings.
    You also posted this to prove your theory;
    I agree that before Salvation there is nothing really good in man. However that doesn't prove all his thoughts are evil. Nor does it prove man cannot respond to the gospel.
    No! I believe what you claim it is about is false. It is not the condition of the natural man and Paul never says that it is. However it is what the Natural man thinks of those who do seek God.
    Did I say that No! this is your own assumption. Can you move mountains with just your faith?
    In your dreams. [​IMG] Faith doesn't come from regeneration and scripture never says it does. Faith comes from hearing.
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    Got you there huh!
    What you meant to say was; not the answer you were looking for.
    I disagree we can know through prayer and study of His word. It's clear you haven't studied enough or prayed enough or you would.
    The part where you lacked the ability to explain what you were talking about.
    Not so! it's what He fininshed that you lack understanding in.
    Very good now you can through out the idea we can't respond to the gospel. You are a true synergist in the making. :D We have been enabled. You can also through out election and irresistible grace. In fact in that statement the whole doctrine of Calvinism's tulip just fell. :D
    Can't have faith in Christ and not be saved but she chose and wasn't made to and did on her own Christ even said it was her choice. How about you showing where a man was regenerated before faith. You don't answer questions do you you just ask them huh.
    You can't stand in it with out faith. By the way who are you to tell me what I can use when you are ripping things out of context all the time. Try answering some of my questions. You've shown a very poor ability to understand the gospel at all.Must be that total depravity that's getting in the way
    See what I mean about your assumptions, That is what you believe in assumptions. Your whole theology is assumed.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #86 ILUVLIGHT, Apr 3, 2005
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    FALSE ACCUSATION! The only thing I deny is your interpretation of the Word of God.

    Open your own mind Cassidy! You are closed to the truth the scriptures reveal! You are indoctrinated by seminary education, and not by Holy Spirit revelation! You hold to a set of "hand-me-down" rules regarding interpretation of scripture, therefore you are not open minded about it! As a pastor and seminary professor, you are not free to think things through, you are bound to a curriculum. That boundary prevents you from seeing the truth!

    As evidence of your boundary, define Grace! What is it, how does it work, and who has it and how did they get it!
     
    #87 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
  8. rc

    rc New Member

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    Christ died for OUR sins... not everybody's Wes... Our...1st person plural meaning The author and the elect...

    Christ laid down his life for HIS sheep not all sheep...

    ALL He has given me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise it up at the last day.

    Christ was not only our propitiation but ALSO EX-piation of our sins... If he expiated everybody's sin, this would include the sin of non-belief. Non-belief is sin, it is suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. If you believe Christ died for everyone, everyone is saved. God's purpose will not be hindered. Proverbs 16:4 4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. If He wants Mr. X to be saved He will be saved!
     
    #88 rc, Apr 3, 2005
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    False doctrine rc!

    If God wants Mr. X to be saved, Mr. X must become a believer in God. God saves NO ONE who does not have faith in HIM, and faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
    God is a respecter of no man, so Faith cometh to ALL mankind by the same means, but if you refuse to hear the word, you cannot come to faith because you know not what to have faith in.....Elect or not!
     
    #89 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    &lt;sigh&gt; The Hebrew word "yetser" means "to form." The idea is "that which the mind forms." The meaning of "imagination" in 1611 was not "the formation of a mental image of something that is not really there" as it is today, but rather, in 1611 the word meant simply "a plan." That which the mind plans. The thoughts which the mind forms.
    No! That was my point! That promise is not made to us so we can't claim it!
    No, you just proved that the unsaved man doesn't have faith until God intervenes via the word of God. Thank you, again, for making my point for me.
    I see. I don't make silly claims that I know the mind of God so I am not as well studied or as spiritual as you are. Let me remind you of Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
    I see. You refuse to understand my simple question because you know that if you answer it honestly it will make your whole argument collapse so you blame the question.
    He finished the atonement. I understand that. It is you and Wes who are saying He didn't finish it and you had to add something to it. In fact now Wes is even saying that the atonement didn't really do anything, it didn't save anybody! Do you believe that too?
    Why would I want to contradict scripture? No man can come to Christ except the Father draw him. The only way to come to Christ is through the drawing of the Father. I don't have to throw that out like you do. I can believe it with a clear conscience.
    Yes, we have. You can deny it all you want to, but it will not change the fact that without Christ we could do nothing and with Christ we can do all things because He enables us.
    Why would I want to "through" them out? I don't even want to throw them out! They are God's Truth! Do you deny that God elects us even when the bible says He does? Do you deny that God draws us to Himself? Did you resist His grace to the end, or did you respond?
    Do you drink, or are you on some sort of medication? I am sorry to have to ask but you are rambling and not making any sense at all.
    I understand the gospel perfectly! "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." It is you who seems confused about what Christ has done for us.
    That may be the problem. After all, Paul said, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost." If you can't see that Christ died for our sins (the atonement) and that he said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him," then maybe you are right. Maybe the depravity of the heart is getting in the way of the Truth of God's word.
    Does that mean you do count me as a brother as you do Wes (even though he denies the atonement) and love me as you love him? You seem to be having a huge problem not only understanding simple sentences but formulating them too. :(
     
    #90 TCassidy, Apr 3, 2005
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Okay, Wes, calm down. Are you denying you said, "ATONEMENT HAS NOT SAVED A SINGLE HUMAN BEING?" You know you said it, Wes. Now, if you are changing your mind and are now admitting that you were wrong and the atonement does save us just as the bible says it does, then that is fine, but to deny you said something that is plain as day and in black and white is just a little disingenuous, don't you think?
    You mean the truth in the scriptures I posted which you deny?
    On the contrary! The Holy Spirit revealed all of this to me!
    On the contrary, I hold to "Holy Spirit illuminated" rules regarding interpretation of scripture, therefore my mind is enlightened by them.
    Nonsense! I wrote the curriculum! [​IMG]
    I saw the Truth by the Illuminating Ministry of the Holy Spirit, and I wrote that Truth in the Curriculum, and I teach and preach that Revealed Truth.

    Where did yours come from? Maybe from a guy name "Murray" or "Stair" or somebody like that?
    As the word "grace" (Hebrew 'chen'; Greek 'charis') is used in multiple ways in the bible ranging from simple favor of appearance or conduct, to the meaning of "gift" as we find in Corinthians 12-14, to a synonym of justification as we see in Paul's epistles, then, of course, there are the special uses such as the special blessing of God on a particular undertaking as we see in Acts 14:26. And the OT use is far different as we see in Isaiah 60:3 and so on. Because of that a ridged "one size fits all" definition is hardly possible as anyone can clearly see.

    However, a summery which will answer all of your questions would be, all that a Christian has or is, is centered exclusively in God and Christ, and depends utterly on God through Christ. Jesus told us that Kingdom of Heaven is reserved for those who become as little children and look to their Heavenly Father in loving confidence for every benefit, whether it be for the pardon so freely given, or for the strength that comes from Him who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

    But I am sure you will find fault with that simply because you give every appearance of lacking the very thing you asked to be defined. :(
     
    #91 TCassidy, Apr 3, 2005
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    You religious charlatan, where among ALL of my posts have I ever denied the Atonement? Quote the exact topic, date/time group and the text of that post.

    OR openly apologize for making an outright false statement about me!
     
    #92 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Wes, Outwest
    posted April 02, 2005 10:52 PM

    "ATONEMENT HAS NOT SAVED A SINGLE HUMAN BEING?"
     
    #93 TCassidy, Apr 3, 2005
  14. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Cassidy,
    Though I am familiar enough with your definition of Grace to know it is not your own opinion but rather the opinion of others that you yourself have accepted, You still failed to finish the definition. You did not answer the, "how does it work" question, that is Calvinist's insist that we are "saved by grace", so by what means does it do this? What are the mechnics of performing such a fete?

    Though you diverted from a definition and explanation of Grace, you did not define who has it, and you did not define how they get it!
     
    #94 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
  15. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Wes, Outwest
    posted April 02, 2005 10:52 PM

    "ATONEMENT HAS NOT SAVED A SINGLE HUMAN BEING?"     </font>[/QUOTE]That is not a denial of Atonement! It is a statement of FACT! I have never heard a testimony where the testifier says, "I am saved by atonement!" I have heard many a testimony where the testifier says "I am saved by Grace". I have also heard testimonies where the testifier says, "My sins have been paid for, I am saved by Grace"

    Does the bible specify that there are two means of salvation?

    Surely, you are wrong to say that I deny the atonement!
     
    #95 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What part of "the pardon so freely given," or "for the strength that comes from Him who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure" didn't you understand?
    I don't know what a "mechnic" is, but I do believe Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

    Maybe, in your haste to contradict everything I say, you missed it. Here it is again, "all that a Christian has or is, is centered exclusively in God and Christ, and depends utterly on God through Christ." That is what grace is.

    Here is who has it and how we get it:

    "The Kingdom of Heaven is reserved for those who become as little children and look to their Heavenly Father in loving confidence for every benefit, whether it be for the pardon so freely given, or for the strength that comes from Him who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

    This would be a lot easier if you would just read what I write instead of just contradicting everything without bothering to read it.
     
    #96 TCassidy, Apr 3, 2005
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Grace of what? The Grace of God in giving the Atonement, of course!
    Then that person knows more about salvation than you do for "my sins have been paid for" is a statement of the Atonement.

    No, as I clearly posted there is only one way of salvation and that is through the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus Christ shed on our behalf on the cross of Calvary just as Paul said, and I quoted, in 1 Corinthians 15.
    Not if you still deny that the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross is what saves us!
     
    #97 TCassidy, Apr 3, 2005
  18. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Well Cassidy,
    I believe that the atonement for sin made it possible to be saved through our FAITH, By God who performed and completed ALL the work for our salvation. He, the person of God, is our savior! Nothing else can save!

    Grace, while present, does not Save.

    Atonement, while completed 2000 years ago, does not Save.

    Yes, atonement for sin is what set aside our death penalty. For 2000 years man has not been held accountable to the death penalty because of sin! God who knew we would be lost eternally because of our sins, set that death penalty aside for ALL mankind, so that through faith in God Any out of ALL mankind can be saved by having faith in God.

    Can man be saved without the atonement? That is a moot point now, because the atonement is a completed work of God just as the creation is a completed thing by God. There is no use speculating about a completed work of God. "The church" obviously did not get the memo, because if it had, the world would be evangelized by now!

    There is but one thing that God looks for in man and that is man's FAITH in GOD. If that faith is present, the man is saved by God regardless of some inane 'theory of election'. God's work for every individual is completed when the individual comes in faith to God.

    The variable in the equation is quite simply...man! Everything else is fixed in eternity by God! The book of life kept since the foundation of the world is open and names are being added as men come to faith in God. Unfortunately names are also blotted from the book of life because some men do not continue in faith! The letters to the churches is evidence of that truth. Let anyone who can hear, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches:
     
    #98 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
  19. here now

    here now Member

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    ILL says:
    In your dreams. Faith doesn't come from regeneration and scripture never says it does. Faith comes from hearing.
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    Got you there huh!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    T Cassidy says:
    No, you just proved that the unsaved man doesn't have faith until God intervenes via the word of God. Thank you, again, for making my point for me.

    ***********************************************

    ILL,
    You simply can not leave out, ignore, the second part of this scripture: Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    It not only tells us that faith comes by hearing, BUT ALSO, that HEARING comes by the word of God. Not everyone who reads the Bible understands(HEARS)it. The understanding of the Bible comes frome the Holy Spirit.

    The verse does not say: So then faith cometh by hearing the word of God.
     
    #99 here now, Apr 3, 2005
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Don't be stupid Here now, You can twist this scripture any way you want to, but if you attempt to say that the hearing is not of the word of God, regardless of the medium in which the word is "heard", you are ABSOLUTELY wrong.

    The Gideon's organization can provide you with masses of testimonies from people who picked up a Gideon bible in a motel or hotel room, were convicted by reading it, and gave their lives over completely to God in FAITH. The word of God itself when sent forth, does not return void!
     
    #100 Wes Outwest, Apr 3, 2005
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