The mountains of freewill and election arguing about whose eternal life valley it is

This hardly sounds like the preeminance we are called to give Christ in Col. 1:18. Christ's role in salvation isn't just 'redirecting.' Makes him sound more like a street-light than a savior.

 

I don't know of any Calvinist who believes he does.

Regeneration prior to faith is not forcing one to believe. It is giving them a new disposition. When a baby is conceived and born into this world, no one talks about "forcing the baby to live." Babies live naturally. And in the same way, giving spiritual life to the spiritually dead is not forcing them to do anything.

He was a servant of God? Are you kidding? He was going to persecute and kill Christians. How is that being a servant of God? If anyone was ever forced against his will, it was Paul. But even he wasn't.

I have never seen any indication in Scripture that Paul was redirected. That is certainly not a biblical conception of salvation.

 

I agree. Christ is 'the author and finisher of our faith' not the 'redirector' of our faith.

 

Pastor Larry,

Excuse me, but could you explain the difference between "New disposition" and "redirection"?

Isn't a new disposition the same as a "new" direction?

 

A new disposition is what Scripture calls "new nature." It is given in regeneration. Redirection I can't define since I see no scriptural basis for it.

 

Hi Larry ;
Would you say that this is a remake of the conscience.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

I'd call it a new heart.
Ezek. 36.26

 

How about a new mind?

A changed spirit?

A new direction?

A change in direction?

A redirection?

It all means the same thing: Once I was blind but now I can see!

Once I was lost but now I am found!

I what headed for hell, but now I am bound for Heaven? (redirection)

 

Can a blind man choose to make himself see?

 

Hi Larry;

Well you say man cannot make a moral choice on his own. So it is clear that man has no choice. By the very fact you claim he cannot make that decision it must be made for him, by regeneration. Regeneration wasn't asked for by man as you claim. So man because he could not choose anything but his desires and didn't desire to be regenerated. By your own claims he is forced by that regeneration, because you say once regenerated he will choose Christ then. It isn't his work but the Spirits. I'm sorry Larry just to many contradictions in Calvinism. You say he isn't forced but then turn around and claim the opposite using different words.
How can a man be saved when to begin with it was against his will or desire. God changes His will. Did man ask for this ? You say no! I say then it was a gainst his will. You say no. If it was mans will to be saved then he would have to choose to be made to believe... You can't get around it you believe in forced Salvation. It is not true, we are not forced to be Saved.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

Really?? Where did I say that?

No, I have said many times that I believe man does have a choice, and every time, he will choose to reject God until he is given a new heart by God.

Technically, I don't believe this, but essentially I do. But I never see any evidence in Scripture that anyone asks for regeneration.

That is a non sequitur. Regeneration is not forced anymore than a baby is forced into existence.

Why don't you start a thread about them then. I have seen this claim many times but so far, no one has been willing to step up and show one. Every supposed one falls apart almost as soon as it is posted. Others take a while because they are posted late at night and no one see them until morning.

Really? Where?

Your saying is wrong.

Choose to be made to believe??? That doesn't seem to make sense. Man's will is turned against God because of sin. God gives him a new nature, and that brings willing faith.

I have conclusively answered this already. It is not true.

Which is what I have said all along.

Mike, start learning my friend. Don't keep repeating this stuff.

 

Hi Larry;
Here is what you change to;

"Brings willing faith" He wasn't willing before God regenerated him with out mans will .
This is the rape of man's will. It is forced.
You say

Before faith regeneration which is being saved which is Salvation.
A very poor answer to a serious question below;

If it isn't true you should be able to prove it.

Your implying again that I don't know.
What are you afraid of Larry why can't you prove what you claim. I'm beginning to think that your afraid of embarrassment
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Change to??? what does that mean?

No it's not. That's nonsense. Do parents "rape a baby's will" through conception? Can't you see how absurd that is?

That seems incoherent. What are you trying to say?

I have.

No I am not. There was no implication. It was an outright statement of fact. You don't know what you are talking about.

I have ... many many times. I have shown the Scripture, the theology. Thomas posted a lengthy discussion of it in another place. This has been shown very many times.

Not at all. I have nothing to worry about ... My biggest embarrassment comes from my typing errors because I type too fast ...

 

Can a blind man choose to make himself see? </font>[/QUOTE]depends on the form of blindness. Physical blindness, probably not, mental blindness probably so, that's what schooling is all about.
Spiritual blindness, Definitely, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

 

Can a blind man choose to make himself see? </font>[/QUOTE]No Way!

Biblically speaking, it is God who causes the blindness so that He can heal them.

 

Biblically speaking the Word of God brings sight to the blind.

 

Christlifter,

You could have been called a lot worse than Calvary Chapeler, you could have been called a Calvinist!