The mystery of the church age

[AustinC]

I do not believe you understand Biblical salvation as you have posted that some are saved by what they do.
You suggest Calvinism is false because you lack understanding of grace.
you suggest grace plus works.

Indeed, as I told another poster, the position of faith plus works is the position the church at Rome chose at the Council of Trent, which solidified Rome's apostasy.

 

[AustinC]

A person CAN become among His sheep if he starts believing the Gospel he's heard.

Does that person believe because they, in their deadness and sins, will themselves to believe...or does that person believe because God, by the Holy Spirit, makes them spiritually alive so that they can believe? (Hint: Ephesians 1&2 give you the answer.)

 

[37818]

Sheep and goats are the final status of the saved and lost.
And from God's view point those who will become saved are already Christ's sheep. Romans 8:30, ". . . Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. . . ." All in the past tense. We do not know who among the lost (goats) are God's sheep, but God does.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sheep and goats are the final status of the saved and lost.
And from God's view point those who will become saved are already Christ's sheep. Romans 8:30, ". . . Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. . . ." All in the past tense. We do not know who among the lost (goats) are God's sheep, but God does.

Read Ezk 34....then Jn 10

 

[canadyjd]

Remember, God has a a way for those who've never heard of Him to be saved. While they may not know who he is, if they believe, from the evidence of creation, that there is an almighty God who made everything, & live a 'decent' life toward their fellow mwen, God will count that as righteousness......

I am astonished!!! You believe there is another way to salvation, other than through faith in Jesus.

All mankind rejected God’s general revelation, according to Romans 1. Your views are nothing more than the “wisdom” of the world, which cannot bring anyone to salvation, according to 1 Cor.

I am always hesitant to label someone’s views on this board as heresy, but it your case, your views deny many essential truths of Christianity.

You deny faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation.

You deny the gospel is necessary for salvation.

You claim mankind can do good works that lead to salvation, denying the truth of salvation by grace.

You are seriously ignorant of the essential doctrines of Christian faith.

I don’t see any benefit of continued discussion with you.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[robycop3]

No....
the sheep have already been given to the Great Shepherd..
when the Spirit quickens them it is discovered that they are lost sheep who Jesus has found.

2 Peter 3:9

 

[robycop3]

I do not believe you understand Biblical salvation as you have posted that some are saved by what they do.
You suggest Calvinism is false because you lack understanding of grace.
you suggest grace plus works.

Faith without worx is dead.(James 2:20)

 

[robycop3]

You have zero scripture for your position...and 2 Peter 3:9 does not support your assertion. You are literally making stuff up out of your own imagination.

Romans 2:11-16

 

[AustinC]

Romans 2:11-16

Here is Paul's full thought on the matter. Read it all.

Romans 2:5-29

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 3:1-31

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

 

[37818]

Read Ezk 34....then Jn 10

Does not change the final status of being sheep and goats, Matthew 25:31-46. So I am not sure of what you wnat me to understand. The sheep in Ezekiel 34 are Israel.

 

[robycop3]

Does that person believe because they, in their deadness and sins, will themselves to believe...or does that person believe because God, by the Holy Spirit, makes them spiritually alive so that they can believe? (Hint: Ephesians 1&2 give you the answer.)

The Holy Spirit does not come upon an unsaved person.

 

[robycop3]

I am astonished!!! You believe there is another way to salvation, other than through faith in Jesus.

All mankind rejected God’s general revelation, according to Romans 1. Your views are nothing more than the “wisdom” of the world, which cannot bring anyone to salvation, according to 1 Cor.

I am always hesitant to label someone’s views on this board as heresy, but it your case, your views deny many essential truths of Christianity.

You deny faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation.

You deny the gospel is necessary for salvation.

You claim mankind can do good works that lead to salvation, denying the truth of salvation by grace.

You are seriously ignorant of the essential doctrines of Christian faith.

I don’t see any benefit of continued discussion with you.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Romans 2:2-16

 

[robycop3]

Here is Paul's full thought on the matter. Read it all.

Romans 2:5-29

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 3:1-31

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Your calvinism has warped your interp of Scripture.

1 John 2:23
John 3:16
Romans 10:13
Not one "whoever if elect" !

 

[37818]

The Holy Spirit does not come upon an unsaved person.

John 16:8-11. Hebrews 6:4, ". . . were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, . . ." 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ." Acts of the Apostles 7:51, ". . . resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." Hebrews 10:29, ". . . was sanctified, . . . and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace . . . ."

 

[AustinC]

The Holy Spirit does not come upon an unsaved person.

So the Spirit of God does not quicken (make the dead alive)?

Ephesians 2:4-5

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

You openly deny the Word of God.

 

[AustinC]

Your calvinism has warped your interp of Scripture.

1 John 2:23
John 3:16
Romans 10:13
Not one "whoever if elect" !

I simply shared scripture (in context). You bring up your own prejudice.

Share all of 1 John 2, all of John 3, and all of Romans 8-11. God is not just a one sentence sound bite, taken out of context. Your method of avoidance leads to false doctrines.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 4:40 PM Pacific.

 

[robycop3]

So the Spirit of God does not quicken (make the dead alive)?

Ephesians 2:4-5

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

You openly deny the Word of God.

I have said more than once that God has always chosen some for special service throughout man's generations.

Your calvinism is phony as a $3 bill.

 

[robycop3]

John 16:8-11.

says nothing about coming upon an unsaved person.

Hebrews 6:4, ". . . were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, . . ."

AFTER tasting the heavenly gift...

1 Peter 1:2, ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ."

I have always said some are pre-elected; the rest of us must come on our own.

Acts of the Apostles 7:51, ". . . resist the Holy Ghost: . . ."

First, He's the HOLY SPIRIT, He's not a ghost. And evidently, those men were unsaved, as they murdered Stephen ad their unbelief was resisting the Holy Spirit. Being God, He could've come upon those men had He chosen, but, as they were unsaved, He wouldn't do it.

Hebrews 10:29, ". . . was sanctified, . . . and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace . . . ."

Again, the Holy Spirit didn't come upon those people.

 

[AustinC]

I have said more than once that God has always chosen some for special service throughout man's generations.

Your calvinism is phony as a $3 bill.

You said:

The Holy Spirit does not come upon an unsaved person.

I replied with scripture:

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

I never brought up theology...but you keep falling on your prejudice to not read scripture. Did God not tell you how he "comes upon an unsaved person" in Ephesians 2:4-5?
God certainly tells you and you will not acknowledge that He tells you your assertion is wrong.