37818
Well-Known Member
But not to this world.
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The Myth Of The Universal Invisible Church EXPLODED
- Thread starter Alan Gross
- Start date
Departed saints are invisible to us, but they are still the church, for Christ is one Body, though many local assemblies.
Tares can be baptized in water but not per 1 Corinthians 12:13. One MUST BE born again of the Word and the Spirit when they believe on Christ, or they are still a tare and not wheat. Indeed, many churches anymore are majority tares.
That's why we call it "invisible". Because only God sees the heart; we look at actions and make our best guess, but God knows, so it's always visible to Him, but not necessarily visible to us. Again, the majority of the church is certainly invisible because it's in Heaven, having already died.
Tares can be baptized in water but not per 1 Corinthians 12:13. One MUST BE born again of the Word and the Spirit when they believe on Christ, or they are still a tare and not wheat. Indeed, many churches anymore are majority tares.
That's why we call it "invisible". Because only God sees the heart; we look at actions and make our best guess, but God knows, so it's always visible to Him, but not necessarily visible to us. Again, the majority of the church is certainly invisible because it's in Heaven, having already died.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
There is no big thing called a 'church' in the Bible, of which departed saints would be a part.
You are describing what the Bible calls, 'The Family of God'.
Departed saints are invisible to us, but they are still 'The Family of God'.
'The Family of God' is made up of all saints, living or departed (that is never referred to as one big 'church'/ one big 'church' is never referred to).
I tried to search for what you are saying like, 'for Christ is one Body'.
This is the best I could come up with;
1 Corinthians 12:11
"But one and the same Spirit works all these things,
distributing to each one individually as He wills,"
"which are all for the good of the whole community; which is illustrated by the simile of a human body, throughout I Corinthians 12, which as the human body consists of many members (various members of the human body),
and is but one (one human body)
so as Christ is joined with the local church assembly, as their Head, though it consists of diverse people (a different variety of members),
yet they are all one in Christ,(they are all saved by Jesus and assemble together, as brothers and sisters in Christ)
and all their gifts are for the service of each other,
1 Corinthians 12:12;
"For as the body" (local assembly)
"is one" (local assembly meeting together),
"and hath many members" (in that local body of believers),
"and all the members of that one body" (all the members of that local body of believers),
"being many" (there are many members of that local body of believers ),
"are one body" (and the members joined together in a local assembly are one body):
"so also is Christ,"; not Christ as the Head of that local church alone, or the members of that local church by themselves,
but Jesus the Head of that local church assembly and the members of that local church assembly, as constituting one body of believers are joined together to Glorify Jesus = one local church assembly, with Christ as their Head,
...which unity is proved and confirmed by the saints being baptized by one Spirit into one body together, as one local church assembly, in this case, THE CHURCH AT CORINTH.
1 Corinthians 12:13; "For by one Spirit" (the same Spirit that gave them gifts also leads the saved souls there in Corinth to be baptized in water, to join themselves to that local assembly)
"are we all baptized" (by water)
"into one body" (one local church assembly, in this case, THE CHURCH AT CORINTH)
"whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free"; ( the Jews and Gentiles would both be members of the same local assembly that they are led by the Spirit to be baptized into, as members, so they might as well get used to it.)
"and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" ( this is saying also to the Jews and Gentiles that they have been saved the same way, by the same Spirit, so GET ALONG.)
We know what kind of 'body' The Bible is talking about here, from
1 Corinthians 12:27;
"Now ye are the body of Christ" (that local church assembly IN CORINTH, is the body of Christ IN CORINTH)
"and members in particular." And what? The believers in Corinth that had been led to be water baptized into membership there, are:
"members in particular", they are particular, individual members of that local assembly, Chosen by God to become members of that local body of Christ, The Church at Corinth.
There is only ONE Interpretation to any given passage that is ultimately God's Message to mankind.
For these verses, you're looking at it.
There isn't room for imagining other things that aren't there.
That is the only thing ever referred to in The Bible as a 'church', i.e., a local assembly.
You are describing 'The Kingdom of God', made up of all living saved souls.
"That's why we call it "invisible", is another nice try, but there is no such animal, as an 'Invisible Church', in the words of the Bible or anywhere else.
These folks that are in heaven are no longer members of the only kind of church Jesus knows anything about if they were down here, and that is a local church assembled together to do the Business of God and carry out The Great Commission, etc.
Saved folks in Heaven are in 'The Family of God'.
Help me to understand. Are you saying we are no longer the church after we die and are taken to Heaven?
And are you saying that Christ has many bodies, that there are many "bodies of Christ"?
That's what it seems like you're saying, but I would appreciate clarification.
Thank you.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"the church" is not something anyone belongs to, unless they are baptized into the membership of one of Jesus' local church bodies.
Salvation doesn't put anyone into some big thing called "the church".
That is not what the word means and there is only one body, meaning "one kind of body". Not two. The bodies of Christ are individual local church assemblies.
Yep, I'm saying that the only thing that is ever expressed by the word, "church", is a local church assembly.
There is one definition for, "church", and that is a local church assembly.
All of the 114 instances of the word, "church", in the Bible refer to a local church assembly or to several local church assemblies.
Each individual local church assembly is "the body of Christ".
There is any number of New Testament local church assemblies, which are "the bodies of Christ", according to their level of dedication and submission to The Lordship of Christ and to the New Testament pattern for the proper formation of a local church assembly.
They each have Jesus Christ as their Head and when Jesus is said to be "the savior of the body", it is talking about the membership being as predominantly regenerated, in each local body.
Church Truth, The Kind of Churches that Jesus Built are extremely important and dear to Jesus Christ. They are where He is brought Glory and in that way, He died for His churches.
Ephesians 5:22; "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord,
23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body."
Christ is the head of the church: here the word, "church", is used generically, in exactly the same way the words, "the wife" is said.
In other words, when these words are applied to real life, you can drop the article "the" and "the church", which becomes plural, and then, "churches".
That is the same way you would drop the article "the" in "the wife", and it becomes, "wives" when you are talking about real life.
Any time the word, "church" or "body" is used, it is referring to one single local church body, in real life, or several local church bodies, etc.
There is not one big giant "husband", when it says, "the husband is the head", etc. and there is not one big giant visible or invisible, "wife" that it is talking about when it says, "the husband is the head of the wife".
The words, "the husband" and "the wife" are simply stated in a generic fashion. "In the real world", we know a "husband" or a "wife" are always individual people, in any real application of the concept.
So, what about "Christ is the head of the church:"?
or "he is the savior of the body"?
or "the church is subject unto Christ"?
or "as Christ also loved the church"?
or "and gave himself for it;"
and "That he might sanctify and cleanse it"?
Are those talking about each individual local church assembly?
Yes.
Are we to invent one big giant visible or invisible "husband" or "wife"?
No.
Then there is no impetus to invent one big giant visible or invisible "church", to interpret these passages, which are all talking about individual local church assemblies, any time you see them in real life.
It's as if I were talking about things wrong with "the public school system."
Whatever I said, would always be applicable to one or more actual public schools, in real life. I wouldn't invent one big giant "public school", in order to make sense of what I was saying.
24 "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word",
"Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;", means the membership that is mostly all saved where bought by Jesus Christ, and in that sense, "Jesus died for His church" = "Jesus died for His individual local church assemblies" (not that He didn't die for His saved Elect that are not members of one of His churches.)
Jesus Christ has Designed for His faithful children to bring Glory to Him in His churches and it is a part of The Great Commission, to teach them all things whatsoever He has commanded them, when it says, "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word", i.e., weekly or bi-weekly preaching of the Word of God.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
It is good for brothers in Christ to maximize their agreements and minimize their differences; amen.
There are things we just won't know in the fullness while we're in these mortal, fallen bodies, on this present earth.
Seek to know? Yes, where God permits it (see Deuteronomy 29:29). But don't divide over things we could possibly err on.
There are things we just won't know in the fullness while we're in these mortal, fallen bodies, on this present earth.
Seek to know? Yes, where God permits it (see Deuteronomy 29:29). But don't divide over things we could possibly err on.
What do you think of what this guy has to say? If you don't want to listen to it, that's fine. I haven't yet, either.
What interested me was what he had written on the white board. For example, the "spiritual church" is saved, born again believers. He calls it the "organism" (which is what I have always called it too and it essentially corresponds with "invisible"), and he contrasts that with the "organization" (again, what I call it, and it essentially corresponds to the visible--the local church), and notes it is made up of believers and unbelievers.
What do you think of his contrasting the two? I may and may not listen to the video--I really don't like the videos on the internet--they're long and take forever to reach their point, it seems. People don't prepare well ahead of time when they make one.
What interested me was what he had written on the white board. For example, the "spiritual church" is saved, born again believers. He calls it the "organism" (which is what I have always called it too and it essentially corresponds with "invisible"), and he contrasts that with the "organization" (again, what I call it, and it essentially corresponds to the visible--the local church), and notes it is made up of believers and unbelievers.
What do you think of his contrasting the two? I may and may not listen to the video--I really don't like the videos on the internet--they're long and take forever to reach their point, it seems. People don't prepare well ahead of time when they make one.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
True. It almost seems like they are afraid to say anything and if they are trying to get along with everyone and know anything they saw will be used against them in a court of law.
True, too. Since, they aren't the easiest thing to do, of course, and are always sooo time-consuming, still, the videos they do make would make PRETTY GOOD 'First takes', right? They should use them as a practice run and then make a 'good one'!!
Ha ha! We use that expression in the dinner line, after a sermon, and tell the preacher that just spoke, "I enjoyed your message, I'm going to take it and make a 'good one' out of it"!! That's your back-handed compliment there! Probably, is 'Baptist Doctrine'!!
Oh, yeah. Go ahead and post the link. I can tell you it sure sounds like he is trying his hardest to reconcile things in his mind.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Awesome. I borrowed this and I hope it is O.K.
I reposted it and am trying to learn it and model it to another bunch that I am in a, "you are a nutcase and couldn't possibly be Led of God", back and forth.
Neither of us is the least bit out of ammunition, but witnessing to lost people sure will be a better use of our time!!
Thank you, two million. Thank you, Jesus.
If there was another influence you counseled that helped turn you on to this;
KEEP...LESTENING...TO...THEM...!!
I got up early and listened to it all. He teaches exactly what I have taught for years. I don’t think he said anything I disagreed with.
I would add that the Lord Jesus said the wheat and the tares grow together, and that is exactly what we see in the organization.
God made the organism; man made their organizations. The Holy Spirit places us into the organism, the spiritual body of Christ. Man places us into the membership of the local assembly.
I think of the Book of Acts where it says God added to the church daily such as should be saved. Man adds to their organizations whoever claims to be saved.
I call the organization, visible, and the organism, invisible, because God alone knows for sure exactly who is in the organism. There are people in the local assemblies who are yet unsaved, but no one joined to the body of Christ is unsaved.
I would add that the Lord Jesus said the wheat and the tares grow together, and that is exactly what we see in the organization.
God made the organism; man made their organizations. The Holy Spirit places us into the organism, the spiritual body of Christ. Man places us into the membership of the local assembly.
I think of the Book of Acts where it says God added to the church daily such as should be saved. Man adds to their organizations whoever claims to be saved.
I call the organization, visible, and the organism, invisible, because God alone knows for sure exactly who is in the organism. There are people in the local assemblies who are yet unsaved, but no one joined to the body of Christ is unsaved.