The Name of Jesus

[Dr. Walter]

Do they believe they are a sinner and the wages of sin is death? Most will say yes. Do they believe Jesus died for their sins and rose again?

Do they believe it BEFORE they are led to say the sinners prayer OR are they being led to say the sinners prayer IN ORDER to believe it? Does confession precede faith in the heart or follow? Is "confession" about something already believed in OR in order to beleive in?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Baloney, if the person BELIEVES Jesus saved them, then he did. You are arguing that a person who has faith is not saved.

No, I am arguing quite the opposite. "with the heart man belevieth unto righteousness" BEFORE confession is made with the mouth or else there is NOTHING TO CONFESS!

The sinner's prayer model REVERSES this order!

 

[Dr. Walter]

So, faith is a decision, not a magical feeling.

Saving faith is NEITHER a decision or a magical feeling. Faith is a state/condition of mind that precipiates a decision. One does not make a decision to believe, they make a decision because they believe. Confession is that decision of the mind but faith is the cause already as the condition of the heart (Rom. 10:10). That is why Paul says faith "IS the evidence of things" of a hope already embraced not that it is something that determines what you hope for.

The former heart is incapable of faith (Deut. 29:4) because the very essentials needed for faith to exist are non-existent in that heart (Deut. 5:29). The giving of a "heart" (Ezek 36:26) "makes" the elect by INTERNAL COERSION (Ezek. 36:27) obedient because it is a BELIEVING HEART and that is precisely why "with the heart (new heart) man believeth unto righteousness (Rom. 10:10).

 

[Winman]

No, I am arguing quite the opposite. "with the heart man belevieth unto righteousness" BEFORE confession is made with the mouth or else there is NOTHING TO CONFESS!

The sinner's prayer model REVERSES this order!

No it doesn't, and Paul clearly shows this in scripture.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul implies here it is impossible for a person to call on Jesus unless they have first believed on him.

An athiest will not call on Jesus, because he does not believe the word of God. A Muslim believes Jesus is a prophet, but he does not believe Jesus was the Son of God who died for his sins and rose again, so he will not call on Jesus. I know this because I work with a Muslim from Yemen and have told him the gospel. He told me what they believe about Jesus.

A person who has been taught they must work their way to heaven is not trusting Jesus alone to save them. Paul warns of adding works to faith.

I don't know of anybody who asks persons to say the sinner's prayer without first preaching the gospel, maybe you do. When I got saved, they went through scripture to make sure I understood I was a lost sinner, that Jesus was the Son of God who died for my sins and rose again. They asked me if I BELIEVED this. I said yes, and only THEN did they ask if I would like to call upon Jesus to save me. I did.

If I had not first believed, I would not have prayed to Jesus.

But I don't know anybody that asks a person to say the sinner's prayer without FIRST preaching the gospel. Do you?

 

[Dr. Walter]

No it doesn't, and Paul clearly shows this in scripture.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul implies here it is impossible for a person to call on Jesus unless they have first believed on him.

You are saying exactly what I said! Faith PRECEDES confession or else you have nothing to confess.

 

[Winman]

You are saying exactly what I said! Faith PRECEDES confession or else you have nothing to confess.

Where did you get the idea I said otherwise, go back and read my posts, I said repeatedly that the prayer does not save, the prayer is EVIDENCE of the faith the person already had.

You are not going to jump from that 6th floor building to the firemen below unless you have at least a speck of faith they will safely catch you. If you don't believe you will cling for life, or try to climb down yourself. The jumping is the evidence of faith.

And that is exactly what Paul is saying in Rom 10:14.

I have been saying this from the start, go back and read for yourself.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Where did you get the idea I said otherwise, go back and read my posts, I said repeatedly that the prayer does not save, the prayer is EVIDENCE of the faith the person already had.

That is what I am saying of the term "confession" it is EVIDENCE of faith already with the heart.

 

[ituttut]

A couple of questions for this thread:

1. When the scriptures refer to our calling on the NAME of Jesus (I Cor 1:2, Ro 10:13) what does it mean? Is it the same as calling on Jesus? When we tell someone to call on the name of Jesus for salvation, what are we telling him to do? One view is that this is basis of the Sinner's Prayer. But the Sinner's Prayer is not calling on the name of Jesus; it's calling on Jesus. .

I find the "sinners prayer" to be before the Cross, so this sinner must go directly to God for mercy. Grace through the faith of Jesus Christ was not yet available.
.
I believe "calling on the name" means now we know the name of the Lord. Scriptures tell us the Word of God would not tell anyone His name, until Mary was told what His name would be, and Joseph was told to name Him Jesus. To save His people it was necessary for a part of God to also become an image of Himself in order to shed His Own Blood. The Messiah, Jesus who is the Christ will deliver Israel from her sins. God asked His people to make covenant with Him, and they agreed. They broke Covenant with their Lord God. So God did what He knew He would do, and that was He would have to shed His blood for the whole world, because His Chosen broke their Covenant with Him.

We can see in Mark 16 what is necessary for those of Israel, in that day, to do to receive remission of their sins. Then after Israel (all Israel) does what is necessary, as we see in Acts 2:38, they the Apostles, and others of Israel were to go to the whole world with the gospel given at Pentecost.

But Israel refused to believe, so I believe those given the Commandment were told to confine their Gospel to only those of the circumcion, as told to us in Acts 15:17-19, and Galatians 2:7-9.

The bible, I believe points out to us the importance and necessity of Believing on His Name. In the Acts chapters shown above we are shown how important this name is. The Acts 9 reference gives Paul the authority to take his gospel to the Gentile, and the whole word, as seen in Acts 16:31.

 

[Tom Butler]

To add a little more, if your wife was worried about her childhood conversion, this shows she is a believer does it not?

If you are concerned, you believe. Folks who do not believe are not concerned, they think it is foolishness and a myth.
SNIP

Unless and until they come under conviction, which my wife clearly was.