The Narrow & Wide Gates, means heaven and hell?

[Betuel]

Hello everyone. I was having a bible study with a group. This group uses the Recover version bible and its foot notes and study with it. They are part of the Living Streams Ministry and the Local Church. We were reading from Matthew 7:13-29. In the footnotes of the recovery version it says this for verse 13: "Destruction here does not refer to the perishing of the person himself, but to the destruction of a person's deeds and work. Then or verse 23 the footnotes says this :Knew here means approved. The same word in Rom. 7:15 is translated Acknowledge.
So we discussed this and they think that verse 13 and the rest of the chapter is not talking about those who will go to heaven and those who will go to hell and then the the lake of fire which is the 2nd death but of those who which 1 Cor. 3:15 speaks of. They say that there is the Kingdom of the Heavens and the Kingdom of God. The kingdom of the heavens is now and the millenium time. The Kingdom of God Is from eternity to eternity(as i understand it). Those in verse 13 will not take part in the Millenium kingdom but will make it into the kingdom of God. The same with the 10 virgins. All 10 will make it into the Kingdom of God but the foolish ones will not be in the millenium kingdom which is part of the Kingdom of the Heavens. I dont believe this to be true. They say that weeping and nashing of teeth will occur for the Christian who did not live the will of the Father. This weeping and nashing of teeth(hell) will take place in the Milenium time but they will be in the Kingdom of God. Is there any scripture to back such a claim or scripture to refute it? Sorry, i am a pretty young believer so i am not as well versed in the scriptures as i can see many are here from what i read. Any and all explination would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Marcia]

Hello everyone. I was having a bible study with a group. This group uses the Recover version bible and its foot notes and study with it. They are part of the Living Streams Ministry and the Local Church.

My comment is on the Recovery version you are using - I would never recommend anyone use that or anything from the Living Streams Ministry. There have been troubling doctrinal issues with the Local Church thoughout its history, even though some claim they are now orthodox.

I strongly suggest that you investigate their doctrinal problems before continuing a study using their Bible.

Many see problems, although this guy has less concerns than others:
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html

While behaving as a denomination in its own right, the "local church" in my experience advocates dogma which tends to express a rather contemptuous attitude towards other churches and denominations revealed for example in their commentary on Matthew 16:18 which says "The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This prophecy is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery (meaning their movement), in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished." (Implying that it isn't occurring elsewhere). In fact it is call the "Recovery" because they claim to be trying to recover the subjective experience of Christ which they seem to think was lost from the rest of the Christian community.

...they also presume that just about anyone with any trivial faith in Christ is saved and a brother in Christ, even if a person has fallen away and no longer believes, or even if they are living a lifestyle of sin. However, such people they believe will face purgatorial suffering, which I elaborate on later. They hold an elitist division among even those who are born of God. The overcomers who won't go to purgatory and the non-overcomers who will.

 

[Betuel]

My comment is on the Recovery version you are using - I would never recommend anyone use that or anything from the Living Streams Ministry. There have been troubling doctrinal issues with the Local Church thoughout its history, even though some claim they are now orthodox.

I strongly suggest that you investigate their doctrinal problems before continuing a study using their Bible.

Many see problems, although this guy has less concerns than others:
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html

Thank you, I use the NKJV Macarthur Study Bible and my NIV study bible. I work at a company that rents space from the Living Streams Ministry campus so i have made friend with them as they see me reading my bible at lunch. I only read from it when we have our studies. As soon as i saw these note, i questioned them. I would like scripture to go back with. Thank you.

 

[Marcia]

Betuel, also see these sources:
http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/F_SumRpt.asp?EIN=237031637

LSM believes that Watchman Nee received unique revelations from God concerning doctrine and the church. The organization also believes that Witness Lee, through his speaking and writings, faithfully perpetuated the message of divine revelation committed to Watchman Nee. It should be noted that, although LSM repeatedly refers to the “revelations” received by Watchman Nee, the ministry’s doctrinal statement clearly affirms, “The Bible is the complete and only divine revelation.” It is uncertain whether the ministry can resolve this seeming conflict. Watchman Nee’s revelations seem to be more than just special insights into the meaning of Scripture (although Witness Lee certainly claims that the Local Church possesses such unique insight). Rather, Watchman Nee supposedly received revelations by way of mystical experiences and visions. These “revelations” appear to form much of the basis for the teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church.

Here is an Open Letter to Living Stream Minisries from 70 evangelical Christian scholars and ministry leaders:
http://www.open-letter.org/
in which they call upon LSM to clarify these troubling statements from Witness Lee such as:

"The Son is called the Father; so the Son must be the Father. We must realize this fact. There are some who say that He is called the Father, but He is not really the Father. But how could He be called the Father and yet not be the Father?... In the place where no man can approach Him (I Tim. 6:16), God is the Father. When He comes forth to manifest Himself, He is the Son. So, a Son is given, yet His name is called 'The everlasting Father.' This very Son who has been given to us is the very Father."

"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS ALSO THE SPIRIT.... and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father. Hallelujah!"​

"God can say to His believers, 'I am divine and human,' and His believers can reply, 'Praise You, Lord. You are divine and human, and we are human and divine.'

Also
http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#L

Local Church, The, Watchman Nee, Anaheim, CA: Controversial movement begun in China in the early 1920s by Ni To-sheng (Watchman Nee). Growth and controversy developed during the administration of their second leader, the late Witness Lee, who moved to America in 1962 founding Living Stream Ministry. Among issues drawing criticism from evangelical Christians is the Local Church's use of the term “mingling” to describe the relationship between God and believers (i.e., Christians become both divine and human like Jesus). Some evangelicals have also charged that the church compromises the Trinity doctrine by confusing the Persons of the Holy Spirit and the Son in a way similar to modalism. The organization's exclusivity has also comme under fire. According to Lee, each city can and should have only one church. Denominationalism is seen as of the Devil. According to critics, the effect is that Lee-led local churches, usually called by the name of their cities (e.g., the Church in Anaheim or the Church in Chicago), become the only true expressions of the Body of Christ. Thus, according to former members, all other churches or denominations are seen as being outside the will of God or not true churches at all. The Local Church has also gained a reputation for threatening legal action to prevent unfavorable public evaluation of its movement. Even Christian critics have been targeted, adding to the evidence that they do not consider believers outside their movement to be true or obedient Christians (1 Corinthians 6:1–8).

They do have orthodox teachings but have never repudiated (as far as I know) these troubling ones. Also, be careful if you google them, they have a huge presence on the Internet and many sites where they defend themselves.


http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=39693

 

[Marcia]

Thank you, I use the NKJV Macarthur Study Bible and my NIV study bible. I work at a company that rents space from the Living Streams Ministry campus so i have made friend with them as they see me reading my bible at lunch. I only read from it when we have our studies. As soon as i saw these note, i questioned them. I would like scripture to go back with. Thank you.

Okay. Hopefully someone will enter this thread who can help you. I'm afraid it's beyond my expertise. :wavey:

 

[Betuel]

I would like scripture proving otherwise in regards to this view. I dont want to discuss Living Streams or their movement.

 

[David Lamb]

There have been troubling doctrinal issues with the Local Church thoughout its history, even though some claim they are now orthodox.

It is a great pity (because it engenders misunderstanding) that this grouping/denomination/sect should call itself "The Local Church". I am sure when most of us use the phrase, "the local church", we are not thinking in terms of a denomination. (I had not encountered the phrase in the sense of a denomination connected with Watchman Nee before I read Marcia's post). For example, Robert P Lightner, in his book, Evangelical Theology: a Survey and Review wrote: "As members of local churches we must not wait for the unregenerate to come to our assemblies." Is this a phrase I should avoid in future, in case it should seem that I am a supporter of the Watchman Nee group? I hope not.

 

[Amy.G]

Hello everyone. I was having a bible study with a group. This group uses the Recover version bible and its foot notes and study with it. They are part of the Living Streams Ministry and the Local Church. We were reading from Matthew 7:13-29. In the footnotes of the recovery version it says this for verse 13: "Destruction here does not refer to the perishing of the person himself, but to the destruction of a person's deeds and work. Then or verse 23 the footnotes says this :Knew here means approved. The same word in Rom. 7:15 is translated Acknowledge.
So we discussed this and they think that verse 13 and the rest of the chapter is not talking about those who will go to heaven and those who will go to hell and then the the lake of fire which is the 2nd death but of those who which 1 Cor. 3:15 speaks of. They say that there is the Kingdom of the Heavens and the Kingdom of God. The kingdom of the heavens is now and the millenium time. The Kingdom of God Is from eternity to eternity(as i understand it). Those in verse 13 will not take part in the Millenium kingdom but will make it into the kingdom of God. The same with the 10 virgins. All 10 will make it into the Kingdom of God but the foolish ones will not be in the millenium kingdom which is part of the Kingdom of the Heavens. I dont believe this to be true. They say that weeping and nashing of teeth will occur for the Christian who did not live the will of the Father. This weeping and nashing of teeth(hell) will take place in the Milenium time but they will be in the Kingdom of God. Is there any scripture to back such a claim or scripture to refute it? Sorry, i am a pretty young believer so i am not as well versed in the scriptures as i can see many are here from what i read. Any and all explination would be greatly appreciated.

This sounds like the heretical doctrine of "Millennial Exclusion". You can Google it and find lots of info on it. There was a HUGE debate on the BB about a year ago and all of the M.E. proponents were banned.
The doctrine basically teaches that even though you are a born again Christian, if your works aren't good enough or you don't work enough in this life, you will be sent to hell for the 1000 years of the MK, after which you will have been sufficiently punished and you may at that time enter heaven. They separate the spirit and the soul and claim that the spirit goes to heaven while the soul goes to hell for punishment.

 

[Benjamin]

There is SOOO much said within the passages of Matthew 7 13-29, and so much much to look at, ponder, and learn from, that volumes of debatible issues could arise. I have found myself heading back and studying those passages countless times, and have often found new (and big issues) to look at many times. These passages can and do serve to drive one deeper in the Word for understanding. I would be leery of anyone who tries to proclaim having nailed all the issues down with absolutes, and especially if they try to point it at the MK for all the answers.

 

[Revmitchell]

Mt 7:13 -
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

The context here is determined by the word "many" with regard to "destruction".

The greek word in 1 Cor 3:15 is Kausis and is also used in Hebrews 6:8.

The greek word in Matt 7:13 is Apoleia and is used a total of 19 times.

To be truthful there is no reason either word could not be used in either context. So then it becomes necessary to look at the context of the chapter as a whole. When you do this you see both works and service being a focus as well as those (people) who do them.

At this point you must narrow it down to the immediate passage. The word many is clearly speaking to people and places the greek word Apoleia in the context of people and their destruction.

Addressing this, however, will not be sufficient as Millenial Exclusionists start with a bigger heresy that taints every other passage in scripture.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Nothing to do with heaven or hell.
Has to do with discipleship, the narrow road of obedience, separation and sanctification versus the wide road of compromise, disobedience, and self-pleasure.

 

[Marcia]

This sounds like the heretical doctrine of "Millennial Exclusion". You can Google it and find lots of info on it. There was a HUGE debate on the BB about a year ago and all of the M.E. proponents were banned.

So that's what happened to them! I remember them from when I was on the BB before I was off for awhile (just busy) and wondered where they were when I came back here a couple of weeks ago.

The doctrine basically teaches that even though you are a born again Christian, if your works aren't good enough or you don't work enough in this life, you will be sent to hell for the 1000 years of the MK, after which you will have been sufficiently punished and you may at that time enter heaven. They separate the spirit and the soul and claim that the spirit goes to heaven while the soul goes to hell for punishment

I know Watchman Nee was big on the soul/spirit separation so that must be how he plays into this. This is one of the dangers imo of being so rigid on soul vs. spirit, when in actuality, the bible often uses terms for soul and spirit interchangeably. I like to say material and non-material, but that's another thread. :type:

 

[JustChristian]

Nothing to do with heaven or hell.
Has to do with discipleship, the narrow road of obedience, separation and sanctification versus the wide road of compromise, disobedience, and self-pleasure.

It's all about Heaven and Hell. You claim it's about decipleship? Where are the deciples entering?

 

[Betuel]

Thank you for the answers. I will do some look ups on here for the threads on "Millennial Exclusion" Im sure i'll find a lot of scripture to go along with it. Didnt sound right when i heard this theory. I thought that it cheapened our Lord's atoning sacrifice for us if we could just say a prayer, say we have faith and love him but then live without doing the will of the Father or obeying His commands and still ultimately make it into heaven.

 

[Benjamin]

Thank you for the answers. I will do some look ups on here for the threads on "Millennial Exclusion" Im sure i'll find a lot of scripture to go along with it. Didnt sound right when i heard this theory. I thought that it cheapened our Lord's atoning sacrifice for us if we could just say a prayer, say we have faith and love him but then live without doing the will of the Father or obeying His commands and still ultimately make it into heaven.

Try a seach on "Two Salvations"

For scripture I suggest Galatians 3 is strong against those who preach another gospel of works.

 

[pinoybaptist]

It's all about Heaven and Hell. You claim it's about decipleship? Where are the deciples entering?

The phrase "enter ye in" denotes that the addressees have something to do with their redemption and eternal salvation, BB. Do you agree with that ?

If you do, then I don't really blame you for interpreting these verses as having to do with heaven and hell. I used to do that, too, until I realized that I was basically mouthing a Roman Catholic doctrine (many of which, by the way, are still in most Baptist churches).

If you don't, and you believe in your heart of hearts that salvation is OF the Lord, from beginning to end, then you will see that this call is made to those who profess faith in Christ.

If anyone professes faith in Christ, then the call is for him to learn of Him, and to follow Him, and to dedicate themselves to Him, and this call is to all whom He had redeemed, or will redeem at the point He made this statement here in time.

The verses underline both the call, and the incapacity of many, on their own to truly be disciples, which takes grace given by God, and on that note, few are chosen.

Many choose the easy roads of compromise, error and sin, all of which, finally, leads to destruction, here in time.

This verse is often taken out of context by many to fit their sermons on eternal salvation, but take a look at the foregoing chapters. The Lord's discourse was on conduct, holiness, and kingdom living, and just two verses before the verse in question, he referred to God as "your Father in heaven", therefore clearly He knows (being the Omniscient God) who these people are. These are His people, for whom very soon He will give His body and blood.

 

[JustChristian]

The phrase "enter ye in" denotes that the addressees have something to do with their redemption and eternal salvation, BB. Do you agree with that ?

If you do, then I don't really blame you for interpreting these verses as having to do with heaven and hell. I used to do that, too, until I realized that I was basically mouthing a Roman Catholic doctrine (many of which, by the way, are still in most Baptist churches).

If you don't, and you believe in your heart of hearts that salvation is OF the Lord, from beginning to end, then you will see that this call is made to those who profess faith in Christ.

If anyone professes faith in Christ, then the call is for him to learn of Him, and to follow Him, and to dedicate themselves to Him, and this call is to all whom He had redeemed, or will redeem at the point He made this statement here in time.

The verses underline both the call, and the incapacity of many, on their own to truly be disciples, which takes grace given by God, and on that note, few are chosen.

Many choose the easy roads of compromise, error and sin, all of which, finally, leads to destruction, here in time.

This verse is often taken out of context by many to fit their sermons on eternal salvation, but take a look at the foregoing chapters. The Lord's discourse was on conduct, holiness, and kingdom living, and just two verses before the verse in question, he referred to God as "your Father in heaven", therefore clearly He knows (being the Omniscient God) who these people are. These are His people, for whom very soon He will give His body and blood.

Jesus never did teach a gospel in which we were not required to participate. Christianity is a way of life. What did He tell Nicodemus? Ye must be born again. I like to interpret this as being similar to waking up one day and finding myself as a poor street urchin in China. What I'm saying is it's a total change in your life style. James says that "Faith without works is dead."

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

To the rich young ruler He said:

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Why did he go away sorrowful? Because he wasn't willing to deny himself and make Jesus Lord of his life.

Luk 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

There are many, many other passages of scripture, including both descriptions of the Judgment in MA and REV which say the same thing. The easy believerism which emphasizing how you can claim to be saved at no personal cost or risk is NOT the gospel that Jesus preached.


A Word from Billy Graham

“The strength for our conquering and our victory is drawn continually from Christ. The Bible does not teach that sin is completely eradicated from the Christian in this life, but it does teach that sin shall no longer reign over you. The strength and power of sin have been broken. The Christian now has resources available to live above and beyond this world. The Bible teaches that whosoever is born of God does not practice sin. It is like the little girl who said that when the devil came knocking with a temptation, she just sent Jesus to the door.”

 

[JerryL]

Jesus never did teach a gospel in which we were not required to participate. Christianity is a way of life. What did He tell Nicodemus? Ye must be born again. I like to interpret this as being similar to waking up one day and finding myself as a poor street urchin in China. What I'm saying is it's a total change in your life style. James says that "Faith without works is dead."

Really,( in defense of nothing) James said this BEFORE the Jerusalem Council. We know before the council he believed in a works gospel. The council was at least 5-10 years after he wrote his book. Paul talked him(and them, the elders) into a view change at the council. James wrote his book to the "12 tribes scattered abroad", before he had any idea about God including gentiles into the salvation thing. He wrote to the Jewish converts, before realizing the law was nailed to the Cross. The earliest Christians still adhered to Judism with their Christianity, and therefore depended on works still. There is much meat in his book, but you have to "rightly divide" it in the context and timetable that it was written.

 

[JustChristian]

Really,( in defense of nothing) James said this BEFORE the Jerusalem Council. We know before the council he believed in a works gospel. The council was at least 5-10 years after he wrote his book. Paul talked him(and them, the elders) into a view change at the council. James wrote his book to the "12 tribes scattered abroad", before he had any idea about God including gentiles into the salvation thing. He wrote to the Jewish converts, before realizing the law was nailed to the Cross. The earliest Christians still adhered to Judism with their Christianity, and therefore depended on works still. There is much meat in his book, but you have to "rightly divide" it in the context and timetable that it was written.

So you're arguing that the Bible can't be used as a source for better understanding Jesus Christ and salvation? I would agree that we need to interpret scripture in light of its historical background. You're saying that we have to take into account things that happen AFTER it was written.

Dangerous ground. It seems that your theory has a lot in common with Catholicism. The Pope can create new theology that overrides the Bible. I simply reject that perspective.

 

[JustChristian]

Does what Paul said after the gospels were written also override the words of Christ as well?

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

To the rich young ruler He said:

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Why did he go away sorrowful? Because he wasn't willing to deny himself and make Jesus Lord of his life.

Luk 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

There are many, many other passages of scripture, including both descriptions of the Judgment in MA and REV which say the same thing. The easy believerism which emphasizing how you can claim to be saved at no personal cost or risk is NOT the gospel that Jesus preached.