The Nation of Israel

Does a deed to a piece of family property, such as a farm or residence, passed down through several generations, count as a historical right?

 

A great number of non-Jewish Palestinians were born there while the land was owned by England (pre-1948). They have a right to live where they were born, do they not?

In the case of those born there, it IS their country of origin. Following the formation of the State of Israel, most non-Jewish Arabs were exiled, without being offerred Israeli citizenship. I have a family friend of mine (who, btw, is a Christian born into a Muslim family), whose birth certificate reads "Jerusalem, Palestine". He and his family, because they are Arab, were not allowed to stay after Jerusalem was unilaterally annexed by Israel (which, btw, was not a part of the plan originally creating the State of Israel).

You might want to check your history. Hispanics were here prior (California, Texas, etc). Upon these territories becoming part of the Union, the citizens were de facto US citizens. This same privilege was not extended to non-Jewish Arabs living in Palestine when Israel was created.

BTW, I'm by no means excusing terrorism committed by Palestinian terrorists. That is unacceptible. It's sad, though, that I have to place such a disclaimer after any post which discusses the topic.

 

John,

You might want to re-read what I said. These people did not create a new state or nation state they became US citizens. This is not the same as creating a Palestinian state. I have spent time in Israel and met many Arab citizens of Israel. The Palestinians don't want to become citizens, they want their own nation. I have no problem with them becoming Israeli citizens. If the have shown themselves to be hostile to the Israeli people (ie. pushing the destruction of Israel) they should not be afforded citizenship, just as we would not give citizenship to the terrorist that came into our country.

Bro Tony

 

What nation are they in? Answer- Israel. Those people that were in our country before we were now have to become citizens or be seen as aliens, they cannot establish their own nation. That is my point. To the victor goes the spoils. That land is Israels, they have a right not to allow another nation to establish itself within Israel's borders.

Bro Tony

 

I agree that this is sad that you have to put such a disclaimer. You do not need to for my behalf as I have never indicated that you would not feel that way. These are interesting issues on which some go to the extreme rather than share legitamate differences of opinion.

Bro Tony

 

What is wrong (terrorism aside) with the Palestinians wanting their own autonomous nation? They feel oppressed in a theocratic Jewish-run state (no judgement of Israel here, just making the observation). Was the south wrong in wanting to secede? Their concerns were, imo, valid. Was India wrong for wanting to be independent?

As far as Palestine becoming an automomous state, it is going to happen. Israel has agreed inprinciple to grant them autonomy and independence. It's just a matter of when this will happen.

 

John,

As for your second paragraph, you may be right. Although, much can happen to stop it. You and I both know how volital it is over there. I will have to wait and see how it goes.

As to the first point, how is it that Israel is the only nation that is supposed to be soveriegn that people expect them to place another nation within its borders. People don't even expect that in Iraq, where you could easily divide the country in two between the different factions. And while I may agree with you about the south having some valid reasons for succeeding from the Union, it was not allowed. Our country would have been weakened by it, as I believe Israel will be weakened by a Palestinian state within its borders.

Bro Tony

 

I don't think anyone is asking to create a Palestinian State within Israel's borders. The desire is for Israel to withdraw to within its own borders and a Palestinian State to be created on the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

 

Actually, the Palestinian territories border other countries or the water. However, what your'e describing is an enclave (piece of land which is totally enclosed within a foreign territory). Vatican City, San Marino, and Lesotho are all existing enclaves. The new Palestine would not be an enclave.

 

Apples and oranges. Israel aquired its intial land in 1948, it expanded its land in 1967 as it fought back the agressors. They have a right to decide what will happen within their own borders. The enclaves you mentioned do not advocate the total annihilation of their surrounding countries. Apparently those countries have no problem with these enclaves now or when they came into being. Israel clearly has a problem, legitamately so in my way of thinking, with a Palestinian State within its borders.

Bro Tony

 

Israel also acquired land unilaterally that were not part of any agression against it, such as its taking of West Jerusalem, thus making Israel the agressor.

Yes they do. They've decided to grant Palestine its own sovereign territories.

As you mentioned, apples and oranges.

Since Palestine will nto be within its borders, as already discussed, that's a nonissue.

 

Not quite. This was all part of the same event. And wasn't it east Jerusalem that they took from Syria at that time? Point is Israel was not the aggressor, it would have never have happened had they not been attack from all sides.

Not really a non-issue. Israel would have the Palestinians on its west border in Gaza and on its east border on the west bank. Not a comfortable situation.

If Israel sovereignly chooses to do this that is their business. I wish others would afford them the same rights to sovereignly control their land as we desire for ourselves.

Bro Tony
BTW- I am enjoying the calm exchange of ideas. Thanks John.

 

East west, it didn't matter to Krakatoa... seriously, you're correct that it it's east, not west Jerusalem. For those keeping score, East Jerusalem is in the West Bank portion of the Palestinian territory, and was not part of Israel pre-1967.

Of concern, yes, but, again, not unusual in countries. In fact, Alaska is part of the US isolated by Canada. Now, granted, Canada and the US haven't had any major conflicts lately, and I see your point, but I think that, once autonomy is realized, this may be less of an issue, though still a concern. In fact, at present, many Palestinans in Gaza work in Israel, often for Jewish owned businesses, crossing the border daily. The typical Gaza resident hates terrorism, because every time some terrorists sets off a suicide bomb, Israel closes the borders, leaving the Gaza residents without the ability to report to work.

As do I. I respectully appreciate it.

 

You may be right. And as I have stated elsewhere if Israel decides to allow a Palestinian state that is their sovereign right. I think it would be dangerous, but it is their right.

Bro Tony

 

In my trips to Israel I have found this to be true. When I had the opportunity to talk with the regular Jew on the street he for the most part echoed what you stated, and the same was true when I was privileged to speak with the normal palestinian.

Bro Tony

 

Who are you accusing of anti-semitism? What in the world are you talking about?

Joseph Botwinick

 

I'm quite envious. My wife to be and I (two weeks and counting until the big day ... woohoo!!!!) are planning to eventually visit the Holy Land. Even though I've been baptized as a believer, I've had this lifelong dream to be baptized in the Jordan River.

 

It is a trip you will not ever forget. I have been there twice. The second time I led the tour and I baptized several in the Jordan River. That was three years ago and they still talk about it. I cannot wait to return. I would love to spend a couple of months there and work on an archeological dig. Might I also ad that the experience has had a great impact on my personal Bible Study.

Congrats on your upcoming wedding. Tell your bride that I have prayed for you both today.

God Bless,

Bro Tony

 

I stand with Bro Tony.

 

Welcome to the discussion Gershom. It has been a good one so far. This can be a volital issue and only LE has threatened to leave the board over what she calls anti-semitism. I have not seen any, although there have been disagreements concerning the land. It will be that way until the Lord returns.

Bro Tony