The Nation of Israel

The promise:

Exodus 23:31 (ESV)
And I will set your border from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates, for I will give the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you.

Deut. 11:24 (ESV)
Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours. Your territory shall be from the wilderness to the Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea.

Joshua 1:3-4 (ESV)
Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given to you, just as I promised to Moses. [4] From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun shall be your territory.

The fulfillment:

1 Kings 4:21 (ESV)
Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

2 Chron. 9:26 (ESV)
And he ruled over all the kings from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt.

1 Kings 8:56 (ESV)
"Blessed be the Lord who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised. Not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he spoke by Moses his servant.

2 Chron. 1:9 (ESV)
O Lord God, let your word to David my father be now fulfilled, for you have made me king over a people as numerous as the dust of the earth.

 

Yes, and it's something all Bible-believing Christians should be ashamed of!


Up until Augustine, as noted in my previous link, the Church Fathers didn't think of the Jews or treat the Jews that way. Thankfully, some of us have gotten back to those Early Church Fathers roots and have seen the light!

 

Ken, the promises you quoted were to Moses, not Abraham.

The Abrahamic Land Promise from Official Israeli Government Web Site

I am going to post this link with regards to the land in question today. Do not forget the original covenant was an "everlasting covenant."

This article explains everything in detail. I am not posting this for your benefit, Ken, because your mind is already made up. I am posting it to clarify my position and for any interested reader of this thread who approaches this with an open mind for research and study on this Land Promise.

http://members.cox.net/lsimmons5/42m2.htm

[ January 21, 2005, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

I'm not arguing that he was or wasn't. My point is that he held to covenant theology, and that very theology is what led him to give his very life for the Jewish people.

I'm not even arguing in favor of covenant theology, necessarily. I'm simply pointing out how UTTERLY RIDICULOUS it is to accuse someone of anti-Wemitism for holding that belief.

 

I already gave you a link to a COVENANT THEOLOGIAN who was EXECUTED in Nazi Germany for his defense of the Jewish people, but you refuse to consider it.

Many thouseand Christians died in WWII to rescue the Jews from a nation of other Christians gone bad.

Christians have done bad things, but your wild insistence on attributing it to an eschatological doctrine held by millions of good people is misplaced.

 

Sad, and reveals close-mindedness and ignorance of history and doctrine.

 

Ok, that's one.

Very few fought with that as their rationale. The US fought because the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor and Germany declared war on us. If you look at the war propaganda of the time, very little focuses on saving the Jews or gypsies or Catholics or gays or handicapped people. Until the film clips of the concentration camps being opened showed, I doubt the full horror of the fate of the Jews was even in the general conciousness.

 

Good point. But you could also say, then, that those in Nazi Germany didn't intentionally allow the Holocaust, which would be true. And it's still ridiculous to smear two millenia of church history by accusing practically everyone (except yourself, of course) of being anti-Semitic.

 

PA JIM SEZ:

Some information about this covenant theologian:

And more...

Source


The point is, as I have shown on previous posts, that the doctrine of Replacement Theology is attributed to Augustine in direct opposition to what the early Church Fathers believed, and Christianity swung away from it's roots to follow in his footsteps about the "Christ killers" to embrace this anti-Biblical doctrine, which is anti-Semitic at its core, and caused the deaths of untold thousands, yea, even millions of Jews through the ages by those who proclaim the Name of Jesus Christ.

If this doctrine had caused the deaths of untold millions of any other ethnic group, the Church would be condemned and it would be anathema to embrace such a belief.

I have given links to show Replacement Theology is a "fringe" belief, out of step with mainstream Baptists in America, including the Southern Baptist Convention, which is the largest denomination of Baptists in America, and yet, even with that, the doctrine of Replacement Theology is still embraced and even defended on this Baptist board. That is truly disturbing.

You can challenge me on any other point running the whole spectrum. But when it comes to proclaiming the truth about Replacement Theology, which I have shown through many links posted, I will not back down. I may leave and shake the dust from my feet, but I will not back down when it comes to Israel and the Jews and the Abrahamic Covenant. God said it is an everlasting covenant. No Augustine or anyone else can change that fact.

<edited only to adjust link for browser purposes, LE>

[ January 22, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

Ken,

Those land promises to Abraham were to his physical seed and they were unconditional. You are confusing the conditional nature of the Mosaic covenant with the unconditional nature of the Abrahamic. Israel weas kicked out of the land because of their disobedience to the Mosaic covenant, but the law which came 430 years laters did not disannul the promise ... at least that's what Paul said (Gal 3). In fact, the land promise was repeated long after those citations you gave, meaning that God did not view those verses as the fulfillment of the land promise. Neither should you.

 

The last time I checked, Moses was a Jew, LadyEagle. In fact, the most famous Jew of all time, behind Christ Jesus.

The words were spoken to the people of Israel, LE, by God through Moses.

Behold how the section including Exodus 23:31 begins way back in Exodus 20:22:

Exodus 20:22 (ESV)
And the Lord said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: 'You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.

God speaks to the people of Israel all the way through Exodus 23:33.

Deuteronomy 11:24 where Moses is speaking, recapping the Law and their journey. It begins at Deuteronomy 5:1:

Deut. 5:1 (ESV)
And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.

And the land promise is presented this way:

Deut. 11:22-25 (ESV)
For if you will be careful to do all this commandment that I command you to do, loving the Lord your God, walking in all his ways, and holding fast to him, [23] then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourselves. [24] Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours. Your territory shall be from the wilderness to the Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea. [25] No one shall be able to stand against you. The Lord your God will lay the fear of you and the dread of you on all the land that you shall tread, as he promised you.

Joshua 1:3-4 is repeating the words of God to the people of Israel spoken through Moses and God promises that everything promised to the people of Israel will take place even though Moses is dead:

Joshua 1:5 (ESV)
No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you or forsake you.

Now, LadyEagle, I do not expect the facts(notice that I made no interpretation) to dissuade a committed Darbyite such as yourself. I simply present the above to anyone who is open minded and is willing to look at what is written in the Bible.

 

Where?

Sorry, Pastor Larry, but I do not accept as being Biblical the Darbyite premise that the church was not a part of the promise to Abraham. Rather, the church was the whole purpose behind the promises to Abraham so that all nations would be blessed with salvation in Christ Jesus from the effects of sin, not with merely some soil that can save no one's soul.

 

Thanks, Lady Eagle, for posting exactly how unorthodox Bonhoeffer was! I don't think he is an example of a Christian fighting Hitler--probably an example of an intellectual fighting Hitler.

To those who believe that Israel is in disobedience and should not inherit the land, let me say that any implications about your personhood are accidental and unintentional. Please do not feel that way just because you have lost the debate (again).

The land promise to Abram:

Genesis 15:18 (KJV) In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

I can't see that from the Nile River to the Euphrates River that Israel ever had boundaries that large. The Arabs should start packing up and moving on.

 

1 Kings 4:21 (ESV)
Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

2 Chron. 9:26 (ESV)
And he ruled over all the kings from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt.

 

Ken, you are confusing the covenants, as Pastor Larry pointed out.

There was an Abrahamic Covenant.
There was a Mosaic Covenant.
There was a Davidic Covenant.

To name three. They are not interchangeable - they are separate.

 

All for the purpose of redeeming mankind, not mere soil.

Sorry, LE, but I believe that you Darbyites have a skewed view of the Bible.

 

Oh, you mean like Justin Martyr:

"The first apologist to do this was a newly-converted Christian named Justin Martyr (who was later killed by the Romans). In 145 CE (ten years after the Bar Kochba Revolt) Justin Martyr wrote an apology in which he was having a dialogue with a Jew named Trypho. Using Bible proof texts, Justin Martyr claimed that the Jews were originally selected by God because they were such an unspiritual group; they needed added laws. He blasted the Jews for rejecting Jesus, for killing Jesus, for leading people away from salvation. He gloated over the destruction of the Temple as being just punishment for Jewish perfidy. Justin Martyr's writings became incorporated into early Christian thought, and were the origins of Christian anti-Semitism."

- SOURCE

Not that I agree that Justin Martyr or any of the early church fathers were truly anti-Semitic. But you need to be careful about claiming something that some others, especially if they are Jewish, might disagree with you about.

 

Ken, let us not forget the Apostle Paul, who called Israel our enemies according to the gospel.

While I am pretrib/premill, I can't stand the larkinism of LE.