The nature of free will

[37818]

• The nature of free will

As a brother,

In regards to Romans 6:16, Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[DaveXR650]

@37818. I can tell you that that verse is taken exactly as written by Calvinists, and Church of Christ (Not United), Wesleyans, and I believe, Free Will Baptists. The only ones who seem to stumble over it and try to redefine it are the modern free grace Baptists or "believism" types of Baptists. They tend to believe that a believer cannot be addressed here, or that sin might result in premature physical death but never that you might be lost.

Most of the controversy over free will refers more to whether or not we have naturally sufficient free will on our own, to come to Christ just with hearing the gospel, not needing any convicting or convincing grace first. As far as I know, most free will Baptists and classical Arminians believe that along with the Calvinists. The difference being that Calvinists believe that the grace before salvation is regenerative or at least of an irresistible or effectual nature and is given in that way only to the elect. Arminians believe this grace is necessary too, but is more convicting and enlightening and can and often is resisted and is given in some measure to everyone. At least that's what I know. Anyone is welcome to correct me on this if they wish.

 

[37818]

@DaveXR650,
People are selfwilled. So many think their wells are now actually free.

 

[DaveXR650]

People are selfwilled. So many think their wells are now actually free.

Yes. A lot of needless argument goes on that would be tempered if we just agreed that the real problem is our wills. Outside of taking a theological position, it may well be that we should be able to hear the gospel and respond and in truth, we should be able to just decide to turn around, turn to God and stop sinning. But any halfway honest person knows their own track record on that and can observe the rest of mankind too. And the verdict is that we in reality don't do that, and we don't do that because we don't want to do that according to our own free will.

 

[37818]

@DaveXR650,
The principals argued in Romans 6:16 were true before mankind had a sin nature.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes. A lot of needless argument goes on that would be tempered if we just agreed that the real problem is our wills. Outside of taking a theological position, it may well be that we should be able to hear the gospel and respond and in truth, we should be able to just decide to turn around, turn to God and stop sinning. But any halfway honest person knows their own track record on that and can observe the rest of mankind too. And the verdict is that we in reality don't do that, and we don't do that because we don't want to do that according to our own free will.

Dave I agree with what you said here " it may well be that we should be able to hear the gospel and respond and in truth, we should be able to just decide to turn around, turn to God". Which we can do as we see clearly in scripture. Eph 1:13, Rom 10-9, Eph 2:8. Through our God given free will we can do all those things.

It is when you then add "and stop sinning" that you move beyond what is biblical. We find in scripture that we can and do continue to sin after we are saved and that is why we are to confess those sins. We freely sin and we can freely confess those sins. We do not loose the free will we have in coming to Christ.

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.

So I do agree that the problem is our wills. The question we must answer is are they free or are they determined.

 

[DaveXR650]

It is when you then add "and stop sinning" that you move beyond what is biblical.

Those verses in 1John point out our inevitable tendency to sin. They show the remedy for when that happens in the case of a believer. Nowhere, do any of those verses even hint that such sin is not truly our fault. Now, I'm not saying that there is not something of a type of willful sin or sin against light or presumptuous sin, which certainly is even more serious - but whenever we sin, is it not due to some choice we make? Or, are you moving to an acceptance of what the Calvinists call total depravity (which, even if you were, would not change the truth of what I am saying).

So yes, that is the question:

The question we must answer is are they free or are they determined.

In my view, the question is not is it free or determined. I concede it's free, but with something drastically wrong with it which left to itself seems very unlikely to ever repent or believe the gospel without at least as much help as Arminius thought, and probably in truth closer to how Edwards viewed it. If the will wasn't "free" at least in some real sense then we could not be blamed. So I concede that but believe that indeed, our free will, left to ourselves, is the very problem.