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The Nature of Inclinations

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011.

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  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Excellent point. It was this capacity to choose between influences or temptation regardless of the source, that made him a moral creation. This is specifically why man is properly held morally accountable for his actions, i.e. choice. This was not merely choice to 'do as one wills,' (Calvinist lingo for necessitated choice, in reality an oxymoron) but rather to actually be the first cause of his intents and as such accountable.
     
    #21 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    It is that ability to be the first cause of our moral intents that is a small reflection of being created in God's own image.
     
    #22 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    Anyone that cannot or will not answer the simple question in post #10 had better take a closer look at their own theology. If post #10 places one in a theological pickle, something is far wrong in their approach to sound philosophy and subsequently their theology.
     
    #23 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I feel that what both you and TS are missing is that the heart is always the seat or origin of all desires which influence all inclinations and ultimate choices.

    Free will as it is in Adam cannot be equated with the condition of the will in fallen man because there are completely different factors involved and that is precisely what you are trying to equate.

    For example, if Adam's righteous heart was immutable so would his inclinations and choices. But clearly that was not the case. Likewise, if fallen mans heart is immutably wicked so that God must give a "NEW" heart as the solution than all the inclinations and choices would be evil and they are.
     
    #24 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2011
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    The principle involved is a first truth of reason. In order to do anything blameworthy or praiseworthy choice must be possible. If there is no choice of the will involved, no moral blame or praise can assessed

    Biblicist, agree or diagree?
     
    #25 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Let's cut to the chase. I believe that such a choice was made by Adam as the representative of all mankind - "by one man's offence" all were "made sinners."

    Second, all fallen mankind comes from the womb with a wicked heart and that heart is the source and origin of all human desires, inclinations and actions.
     
    #26 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2011
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I need to go some place so if I don't answer it is because I am not on line. I appreciate your willingness to discuss this issue and I thorughly enjoy the discussion with you and TS.

    Until later may God bless you.
     
    #27 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2011
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: The influences and inclinations plying on the will are desires. What desire lies behind a desire that lies behind a desire?? There are inclinations or desires and the will forms its choice as it wills. We are not in direct control of basic inclinations Biblicist. They are involutary impulses. I am talking basic desire here, not ones that we have fed for years. We can certainly be responsible for feeding a desire and for those acts of the will in agreement to those desires be held justly accountable. That is why I asked you about the first desires Adam had, his first inclinations. I want you to see that he had no choice in them nor do we have any choice in any number of desires, inclinations or proclivities that lie antecedent to our moral birth or age of accountability that we are born with and have not morally acted upon prior to reason.
     
    #28 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2011
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: In all fairness, that is not cutting to the chase. There is a fixed chasm between making a point and trying to clearly and reasonably developing a position. Again, if you will not answer the simple agree/disagree question of post #10 on a truth so simple that a wayfaring man though a fool could see the validity of it (being a first truth of reason) there is absolutely no hope of reasoning together. I sincerely hope you will when you have time come back to a reasonable discussion of such a basic elementary first truth of reason. :thumbs:
     
    #29 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is a gota question that cannot be answered Biblically with a yes or no without qualfiications as you will see.

    However, in essence I agree.
     
    #30 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2011
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Why don't you accept the commentary of Christ on this matter? He says that all, not some, but all wrong desires behind all wrong actions originate in and with the heart.

    In other words, NOTHING external to the heart plays any significant factor at all other than providing the opportunity for expression.

    Temptations provide only opportunities for expressing inherent desires of the heart rather than originating such desires.

    The human will is not something external to the heart or independent of the heart as it is merely the faculty for expressing the desires of the heart.

    You seemingly desire to complicate a very simple issue, indeed, it seems that you actually want to REVERSE the Biblical explanation.

    You cannot use Adam whose heart is not the same as our heart. Whose will is not the same as our will. Whose position is not the same as our position.

    Again, if Adam's heart was immutably righteous so would be all his inclinations and choices but that is obviously not the case was it?

    However, our heart is immutably unrighteous or else God's solution would not be a "New heart" (Ezek. 36:26). Hence, since our heart is immutably unrighteousness than all our inclinations and choices are unrighteous. It is impossible to make the human will independent of the human nature - can't be done with man or any other rational creature of God. To attempt to postulate such a theory is admission of fundemental ignorance of the reality of things.
     
    #31 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2011
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    Leave the Biblical part out of it just for a moment. God first gives to us intuitively, apart from Scripture, some basic truths or first truths of reason that to find fault or to disagree with them is to cavil at truth itself. These truths are so universal and so basic that to try and establish truth without applying them to our thinking is nothing other than a sure fire way to end up in nonsense. These are truths we as civilized individuals operate and conduct our lives daily in accordance to them.

    What do you mean by 'in essence?' Is it a truth you believe is God-given and God inspired intuitive truth that we can trust and follow or not? If not fine. Tell us why you cannot whole heartedly put your trust in it as God inspired truth. I will reason with you.
     
    #32 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    That is exactly what one MUST do in order to follow your line of logic. The Word of God is GOD'S LOGIC revealed and when you depart from that to your "own understanding" the consequences are ALWAYS error.

    I am sorry, but I refuse to even take one step down such a path as that kind of intutive thinking does not originate from the new man or the Spirit of God. Besides have you noticed my handle and subscript scriptures? Do you want me to be a hypocrit? Remember God's command "turn not from it to the left or to the right"???


    There are two different Greek terms used in the New Testament translated "will."

    1. Boulomai

    2. Thelema

    The first gives expression of the thinking whereas the second gives expression to feelings.

    There is no such thing as a "will" independent of the thinking and feeling as all choices are the expression of one or the other and together they form what the bible calls "the heart" of man.
     
    #33 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2011
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  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: All Scripture is subject to interpretation. Secondly, first truths of reason that I have set forth is a universal principle with all reasonable men and has nothing to do with what religion or if any one subscribes to. I am trying to establish some God-inspired universal truths that we can be absolutely certain of that we can use as tools in our establishment of Biblical interpretation. Biblical interpretations should never contradict, matters of fact, first truths of reason or matters of immutable justice. Common sense attests to that.

     
    #34 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  15. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    No HP you don't need to do that. Take a lead from Biblicist and jump all over the bible to prove your point. God gave man a choice.
    Deut 39:19
    Joshuah 24:15
    and again Psalm 25:12
    proverbs 1:29
    Proverbs 3:31
    Proverbs 8:10
    Proverbs 12:26
    Isaiah 56:4
    John 17:7
    James 4:4
    Scriptures support mans ability to choose for or against God.
     
    #35 Thinkingstuff, Nov 16, 2011
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    When will you simply give me a straight forward answer without qualification on post #10? You have not established one basic principle of truth to judge your positions by, or one set of sound list of rules for Biblical interpretation. You simply just keep making theological assertions and expect me to buy into them because you or someone else believes it to be so. I could care less at this juncture if there a thousand GK definitions of any word. I am looking for truth so simple and plain that a wayfaring man though a fool may not err therein. If you do not have any truth that basic and simple, condescend to a man of lesser abilities and knowledge and correct his thinking on that basic level. If you will be patient, we in time will get to the deeper questions you raise. For now, give me an unqualified simple yes I agree totally or explain where I am wrong.
     
    #36 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    Thinkingstuff, you did such a great job I will leave that to you for now. :thumbs:

    You know full well how so many of these topics go, pitting one proof text against another with no real manner to judge which one is being manipulated for this view or that. We have been around that rodeo more than once with little effect. If one is not willing to build from knowledge a wayfaring man though a fool would not err in, there is little to no hope of that person ever coming to see the error of their thinking or ever honestly examining their conclusions.

    Every theologian has a philosophy, either cognizant of it or not, that plays a huge part in their interpretation of Scripture. Biblicist is no different. He might like to think he is different, but he has a philosophy and it shows.
     
    #37 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
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  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Go ahead. Tell us the simple truth of post #10 is not the truth and cannot be from God. If it is the truth, then its origin is the God of all truth. He is no hypocrite who follows and seeks for God to reveal His truths regardless of the source, intuitively or from Scripture.

     
    #38 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    If there are any other honest heart seeking Gods's truth that would like to pursue this subject, and is willing to come to grips with a most elementary first truth of reason as stated in post #10, wade on in. You have only truth to gain and error to expose.:godisgood:
     
    #39 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 16, 2011
  20. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Agree.

    Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.    ​

    We see a clear progression from one's own lust to sin and from sin to death.

    Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.    ​

    Only those guilty of sin need to fear death (the punishment of sin). If the progression is 1- ones own lusts 2 - ones own sin 3 - ones own death 4 - fearing death 5 - bondage to sin and the devil... then I submit for consideration that Biblicist has a good point - wicked inclinations come from our own hearts.

    Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.    ​

    However, consider this:

    Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.​

    A friend of mine once said, "Christianity is the most selfish religion in the world because it's all about saving your own skin."

    While my friend likes to say inflammatory things to prompt discussions, there is a hint of truth. Why would we come to Christ if we didn't attain eternal life by doing so? Why would we be motivated if there was no reward? Is it our own lust for life that initially motivates us to faith in Christ? Is salvation our motivation? Why would we choose to die to our flesh and put on the mind of Christ if it didn't benefit us in some way?

    Therein we find a deeper question - are good and evil competing lusts? If so, does it demonstrate a choice exists between which reward we want most?
     
    #40 Gup20, Nov 16, 2011
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