The Nature of Man

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: Simple, faith is the only way to salvation. Faith comes from hearing (understanding). Understanding takes a mental capacity to do so, as does choice and acceptance. Either a fetus has the mental capacity to choose Christ or reject him, or he doesn't. There is no middle ground. Same applies to MR/DD, and knowledge and understanding are needed to actively choose are reject truth.[/QUOTE]

HP: How does a fetus have a capacity to choose or reject Christ? It might have potential if in fact it is allowed to develop, but what is this concerning capacity? Here is what you said :

Webdog: It would depend on the adult. An adult born mentally handicapped is not accountable. There is a point when we realize that the wrong things we do are against God, and this is when we are accountable. For some it may be 5, some 13, some 18...who knows.

HP: I saw in this that you were basically setting forth the idea that knowledge and ability are necessary for accountability. I saw you suggesting an age of accountability. I would agree with both of those ideas. The truth is that if one never hears of Jesus they still are held accountable for that which they did know, not for that which they have not heard of. Before we ever are accountable for the rejection of Christ, which again only comes to those that have heard the good news, we are first accountable for our acts of selfishness, those acts in violation of our intuitive understanding of that which is good and in accordance to love. We are sinners not because we are born sinners, but because when we came to the age of accountability, we chose selfishness as opposed to benevolence, voluntarily without force or coercion. The damning sin is not the rejection of Jesus Christ, but our first act of selfishness subsequent to the age of accountability.

What I was looking for in my former post was supportive evidence that blame can only be just and accredited to ones account subsequent to moral agency. Take this first truth of reason for example. Nothing can be blameworthy or praiseworthy without choice….or possibly state it this way: in order to do anything blameworthy or praiseworthy, one must have choice. Choice consists in having the ability and opportunity to do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances.

If choice is not present, and ability to do something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances, no moral accountability, no moral praise or blame can be predicated of the intent or action.

Make sense?

 

[steaver]

Hp;

we chose selfishness as opposed to benevolence, voluntarily without force or coercion

Satan does not tempt us as he did Eve?

 

[Marcia]

I answered this to the best of my ability in post #38.
Here it is again.

Okay, but that seems to contadict what you said in Post #27:

Paul isn't saying that he was sinless. He's saying that he wasn't held accountable until he understood the law. Once the law comes into our heads and hearts and we comprehend the full meaning of it, we realize we've sinned and at that point become guilty of transgressing the law and we are separated from God spiritually. We must be born again at this point

.

 

[JSM17]

Steaver wrote:

Satan does not tempt us as he did Eve?

Gen 3:1-6
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"

2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;

3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.

5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.NKJV

Eve was tempted just the same way Jesus was tempted and just the same way that John says we are tempted as well as James:
Matt 4:1-11
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry.

3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."

4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple,

6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.'"
7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'"
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."

10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
NKJV

1 John 2:16

16 For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world.
NKJV

Both Eve and Jesus were tempted my Satan by these things spoken by John. We are tempted in the same way. James explains how sin develops and it is not something that was there already but a process:
James 1:13-16

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
NKJV

In the context James is talking to Brethren, yet sin is developed in this manner for both the saved and unsaved. If we are born with sin then there is no process, it is just there.

 

[steaver]

JSM17;

If we are born with sin then there is no process, it is just there.

Explain why babies die without ever receiving any knowledge of good and evil, without the "process"?

:jesus:

 

[Amy.G]

Okay, but that seems to contadict what you said in Post #27:

.

Sorry. I guess I didn't word it right.

Also, I'm referring to the spiritual death. The physical death comes on all because of Adam.

 

[steaver]

Amy;

Also, I'm referring to the spiritual death. The physical death comes on all because of Adam.

I am wondering why you seperate the two deaths. What scripture tells you that they are seperate?

:jesus:

 

[Amy.G]

I am wondering why you seperate the two deaths. What scripture tells you that they are seperate?

:jesus:

Because all die, even infants who have not sinned. But we are only held accountable to God for our own sins. I am not punished for the sins of my father. Spiritual death is a result of my own sin. When Adam sinned, he died. Yet he lived physically for many more years. His spiritual death (separation from God) was immediate. He died physically because he was denied access to the tree of life.

 

[steaver]

Read Romans 5,

I believe it is pretty clear that through Adam's offence "condemnation" came to ALL. Now condemnation is not merely physical death. Condemnation is speaking expressly of a life without God in everlasting seperation.

(vs 18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation;

:jesus:

 

[JSM17]

Steaver wrote:

Explain why babies die without ever receiving any knowledge of good and evil, without the "process"?

Physical death is a result of man not able to partake of the tree of life after the sin of Adam and Eve, but Spiritual death is a result of our transgression of God.

Since the guilt of the sins that were committed by Adam cannot be placed upon his son and so on and son then they babies today to not have that guilt as well. Of course there were no babies that we know of in the garden.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Satan does not tempt us as he did Eve?

HP: I am not certain what you are asking. No, I have not had any speaking snakes come to me. I have uttered the word “get thee behind me satan” on more than one occasion.

Satan did not force or coerce Eve into her disobedience. He served as a powerful influence, but Eve still yielded to his suggestions willingly without force or coercion, did she not?

 

[steaver]

Satan did not force or coerce Eve into her disobedience. He served as a powerful influence, but Eve still yielded to his suggestions willingly without force or coercion, did she not?

No deceiver, no sin.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

JSM17;

Physical death is a result of man not able to partake of the tree of life after the sin of Adam and Eve, but Spiritual death is a result of our transgression of God.

Since the guilt of the sins that were committed by Adam cannot be placed upon his son and so on and son then they babies today to not have that guilt as well. Of course there were no babies that we know of in the garden.

You will have to square this pov with Romans 5.

(vs 18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation;

Harmonize this with your pov and we can move on. :jesus:

 

[Amy.G]

Read Romans 5,

I believe it is pretty clear that through Adam's offence "condemnation" came to ALL. Now condemnation is not merely physical death. Condemnation is speaking expressly of a life without God in everlasting seperation.

(vs 18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation;

:jesus:

I believe the bible makes it clear that God does not hold the sins of the father against the son. All have been condemned physically because all have no access to the tree of life. When we are born again it is only spiritually, not physically. The two are separate. When we shed this earthly body and go to be with the Lord, we will again partake of the tree of life, which is Jesus, and so live eternally with a new body and a new spirit (which we already have now).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: No deceiver, no sin.

HP: Says who? Scripture tells us that when we sin we are drawn away by our own lusts and enticed. I suppose that there is an element of deception in all sin, but why must their be a deceiver other than our own lusts?

 

[steaver]

Amy;

I believe the bible makes it clear that God does not hold the sins of the father against the son. All have been condemned physically because all have no access to the tree of life. When we are born again it is only spiritually, not physically. The two are separate. When we shed this earthly body and go to be with the Lord, we will again partake of the tree of life, which is Jesus, and so live eternally with a new body and a new spirit (which we already have now).

Can you square this pov with Romans 5?

(vs 18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation;

 

[steaver]

HP: Says who? Scripture tells us that when we sin we are drawn away by our own lusts and enticed. I suppose that there is an element of deception in all sin, but why must their be a deceiver other than our own lusts?

Says God (Genesis). You will have to ask Him why when you see Him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Says God (Genesis). You will have to ask Him why when you see Him.

HP: Where in Genesis?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: which is Jesus, and so live eternally with a new body and a new spirit (which we already have now).

HP: What? Who said we have a new body now? I certainly do not. I am in the same old flesh I was in before I got saved. I expect to be in it until I die.

 

[steaver]

HP: Where in Genesis?

3:1

2Cr 11:3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

:jesus: