-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The Nature of Man
- Thread starter JSM17
- Start date
Gup20
Active Member
Amy.G said:
Ok.
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Oh we can fulfill The Law. When the law says if you sin, then you die... and we sin, and then die, then The Law is fulfilled in us. Once dead, The Law is fulfilled.
The difference is, we could not live again with The Law. Only Christ, who had no sin, was able to both fulfill The Law and live... hence the resurrection. The "curse of the law" is death. (1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. ) Once dead, we have fulfilled our obligation to The Law. But because our spirit is made alive by our faith in Christ we rise with him as resurrected beings.
(see 1 Corinthians 15 for teaching on the resurrection)
Gup20
Active Member
Amy.G said:
Because as it stands, the only way I can fulfill the law without Jesus is to die and be separated from God for eternity. This is not the desired result.
When it comes to the law, there are two choices for fulfillment:
1. Obey the law and live
2. Disobey the law and die
I can fulfill the law by doing #2, but I remain dead, and that is not the desired outcome. The desired outcome is eternal life. Since I am unable to do #1, my only option for obtaining eternal life is faith in Jesus Christ.
But regardless of whether I choose to believe and gain eternal life, or whether I choose not to believe and gain eternal death, the law will be fulfilled in me - that is an inescapable truth.
A very simple illustration:
If a person is convicted of a crime who's punishment is 1 year in jail, and they serve their time in jail and are released, would you say that justice was served? Yes, justice was served, and the law - which spells out the nature of the crime and the punishment for disobedience - would be fulfilled. Justice is satisfied. Sure justice is satisfied if there is no offense, and no punishment, but justice is also satisfied if there is an offense, and the proper punishment is attributed to the offender.
You see, eternal damnation, while not a desired outcome is in fact a fullfillment of The Law.
Marcia
Active Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
You're misunderstanding what is meant by being in bondage to the Law. It means that we are condemned with no hope. That does not describe me.
This is not about obedience; it's what the Bible says. Please see what I posted, that the Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ, and what Amy posted from Romans:
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace
The law was introduced that the "offence" might abound. The offence was already committed by Adam and the "condemnation" of that offence passed on to all mankind. The offence was present in man before the introduction of the law increased it's intensity.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Ro 5:19-21)
:jesus:
When God made Adam and Eve did God make them with the propensity to sin?
When the first offspring were born Cain and Abel, if they were both born with a sinful nature why is it the Abel chose to do well, yet Cain would be looked at as following his natural state of sinfullness which was passed on to him now that this curse was manifest in him?
Who curses the children born with this sin?
Is God the author of our souls? What does it mean to be made in His image, are still made in His image?
When the first offspring were born Cain and Abel, if they were both born with a sinful nature why is it the Abel chose to do well, yet Cain would be looked at as following his natural state of sinfullness which was passed on to him now that this curse was manifest in him?
Who curses the children born with this sin?
Is God the author of our souls? What does it mean to be made in His image, are still made in His image?
Is this a rhetorical question? I'm sure you know the answer. Having an ability to make choices does not equate to propensity.
Is there scripture that says Abel never personally sinned? Abel received the same condemnation of the one offence of Adam as all mankind did.
God. All children are born with the condemnation of Adam's original sin, not a condemnation of all of Adam's person sins therafter, but the one offence brought the curse to all.
Adam and Eve was made in the image of God. Their offspring carry this same image although it be tainted with sin ever since Adam's offence.
:thumbsup:
Gup20
Active Member
steaver said:
I would have to agree 100% with everything steaver says here. But I would just add -
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Here is proof that Abel did sin.
And as to being made in the image of God --
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
We were originally created in God's image yes, but we are no longer that perfect image. We are now a corrupted image.
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I do BELIEVE Abel did sinned. Because, the story of Cain and Abel was very brief in just a day. What about their lifetime before they prepared the offering. I am sure that both were commit sinned earlier in their life. Also, I believe and no doubt that, Adam did taught them with the instruction of sacrifice as what God taught Adam. Because Adam sinned, therefore, sin passed upon all people, therefore, both Canin and Abel are sinner. Period. That why, they need sacrifice to God for to forgive their sins. But, Cain refuses to follow God's way of sacrifice. Instead, Cain doing his own ways. While Abel did the right thing with slain lamb by obey God. God pleased with Abel. But, God was not satisfy with Cain's offering. Cain were jealous of Abel.
Little off the track. I believe Cain and Abel both did receive revelation from God. When Cain killed Abel. God was did talked to Cain in His voice. I consider that was revelation. God gave the mark upon Cain.
The big question was, did Cain actual repent of his sin after he killed Abel, and remain saint? I do not think so. Because Cain fled away from Adam, not want to admit or tell to Adam that he did kill Abel.
Now here come my another big question is. Was Cain saved? When Cain killed Abel.
I do believe Cain and Abel both were saint before they make offering. Because Adam did taught them of offering.
When Cain killed Abel. Did Cain confess his sin to God? Silence. I do not think Cain did repent his sins afterwad, and he fled away from his parents all his life till death. Therefore, I believe that Cain is now in hell.
So, this is not the proof of OSAS.
Sorry I am off the track on this topic.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Little off the track. I believe Cain and Abel both did receive revelation from God. When Cain killed Abel. God was did talked to Cain in His voice. I consider that was revelation. God gave the mark upon Cain.
The big question was, did Cain actual repent of his sin after he killed Abel, and remain saint? I do not think so. Because Cain fled away from Adam, not want to admit or tell to Adam that he did kill Abel.
Now here come my another big question is. Was Cain saved? When Cain killed Abel.
I do believe Cain and Abel both were saint before they make offering. Because Adam did taught them of offering.
When Cain killed Abel. Did Cain confess his sin to God? Silence. I do not think Cain did repent his sins afterwad, and he fled away from his parents all his life till death. Therefore, I believe that Cain is now in hell.
So, this is not the proof of OSAS.
Sorry I am off the track on this topic.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
NASU
How does Christ identify with a man being born in sin, if He himself was not born in sin?
How was Christ made like His brethren in all things if He was not born in sin?
Heb 2:18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
NASU
Jesus was tempted but never submitted to that temptation. Jesus did not have sin and was not born into sin, so how does he identify with those who are born sinners to which we sin because we are sinners from birth and not sinners because we sin?
NASU
How does Christ identify with a man being born in sin, if He himself was not born in sin?
How was Christ made like His brethren in all things if He was not born in sin?
Heb 2:18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
NASU
Jesus was tempted but never submitted to that temptation. Jesus did not have sin and was not born into sin, so how does he identify with those who are born sinners to which we sin because we are sinners from birth and not sinners because we sin?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Excellent questions JMS17.:thumbs: The truth of Scripture is that he took upon Himself the seed of Abraham. If Abraham’s seed was sinful and that from birth, so was the seed of Christ.
When will we ever understand that sin does not lie in the constitution of the flesh as Augustine falsely taught, but rather in the will and that only subsequent to a sinful choice, something Christ never did. Christ “ was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Other than the fulfillment of prophesy and God desiring to be directly involved in the giving of His Son by utilizing supernatural means of implantation of the seed, I do not know. God has not revealed to me all the reasons. I am certainly not going to start assuming the false theories of Augustine, influenced greatly by his heathen background, notions such as he introduced into the church concerning original sin.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Augustine must be your hero. You quote him more than any other ECF/commentator I know. In fact you quote him more than all other commentaries and ECF added together. You must think a lot of him.
Needless to say, without the virgin birth Christ could never be fully man. Neither would he escape the sin nature. There are those two reasons. There is also a third. He had to escape the curse put on Jehoiachim and still be of the line and lineage of David. Joseph was of that line of Jehoiachim; Mary wasn't. But they both had descended from Mary.
However the primary reason is that Christ is the second Adam.
The first Adam was born without sin; as was the second Adam.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Why?
HP: You beg the question of a sin nature. There is not one Scripture whatsoever that says that man is born in sin or that man is born with a sin nature.
HP: That notion has been debunked in numerous ways. Here is just one in a quote from the Jewish Encylopedia
""Jehoiachin's sad experiences changed his nature entirely, and as he repented of the sins which he had committed as king he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king (Jer. xxii. 30; Pesi., ed. Buber, xxv. 163a, b); he even became the ancestor of the Messiah (Tan., Toledot, 20 [ed. Buber, i. 140])"
Jewish Encyclopedia, Entry on Jehoiachin2
HP: And so are all others. Sin is not acquired until we are drawn away of our own lusts, enticed, and intents are formed consistent with that enticement. “Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." All have sinned is the Biblical statement. Never does Scripture state or imply that all are born in sin, born as sinners, or with original sin. All we like sheep have ‘gone astray’ is the Biblical admonition. It does not say that all we like sinners were born that way.
Last edited by a moderator:
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
You defeat all your previous arguments right here alone.
ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
In this verse "all" means "all," excluding Christ.
We can't escape the fact (infants included) that we are sinners and have missed the mark of God's glory or holiness. Not even an infant is as holy as God or has attained the mark of God's glory. That is what the verse teaches. We all have fallen short; we have missed the mark--as an archer misses his target--so we have missed the mark of the holiness of God, and that by a long shot.
No one, infant, mentally challenged, saint or sinner, has even come close to the holiness of God. We are all sinners; all have sinned.
And thus it can rightly be declared:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
--Except for the resurrection, all will die. It is a fact of life. There are no exceptions. And after death is the judgment. Every man will face it. Every sinner will be judged. No one will escape a judgement--not one.
But your theology is: "Sin is not acquired until one is drawn away with his own lust and enticed."
This is a false theology. It is false because:
1. James was writing to those that were already saved (see verse 1).
2. It is false because it negates the truth in Romans 3:23 that all have sinned.
3. It is false because it presupposes that a person could go through life without sin, and like Christ be qualified to die for our sins as well. A sinless person can die for a sinful person. That is the ransom to be paid. But Christ being God could die for all the sinners of all the ages.
4. Like Charles Finney you are putting forth a strange anti-Biblical philosophy that because it is possible to live a sinless life, it is possible to build a community of sinless people, and thus work toward building the kingdom on earth. Thus your position would be amillennial. But the reality is that people do have sin natures; Finney was wrong in his theology; there are no such thing as sinless saints; perfect communities do not exist; perfect saints deny the teaching of Scriptures.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: All does not always mean every living soul. Should I remind you of passages that utilize the word ‘all’ in which you would tell us that the ‘all’ does not really mean all? Legion is the number that could be cited. Here might be just one such example. Lu 21:17 And ye shall be hated of ALL men for my name's sake.” Does all mean literally all or not? Will all infants hate us? I believe you need a reality check of the position you are trying to defend and the line of argumentation you are attempting to use agaist others and reason itself.
Marcia
Active Member
JSM17 said:
Hebrews is telling us that Jesus incarnated and added human nature to his deity, so that he could be like man. He felt cold, heat, hunger, fatigue, stress, etc. He had to have human nature to die for man. This is one reason we know fallen angels cannot be saved - Jesus did not come for the angels and was not made like an angel, nor did he die for them.
He suffered temptation although he did not sin. It is a mystery as to how he could be tempted, but Scripture tells us he could, so we know it's true.