The Nature of the Will

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

So while we flesh out the most minute details concerning the least nuances of supposed GK verb tenses, and try and act as if though what one presents as the only meanings of GK words, we refuse to see the need or take the time or even refuse to simply look at or discuss simplistic moral principles universal in nature, that all men of reason recognize to be truth. We will spend post after post on the definition of GK words whilee refusing to even consider the fixed universla meanings of some basic words that in all languages retain the same meanings, words like liberty and necessity.

There is only one verse that comes to mind to describe such a state of mind. Jesus ran into the very same mind set. Here is how he addressed them

Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Come on Biblicist. Show the list that such does not apply to yourself.:thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

So while we flesh out the most minute details concerning the least nuances of supposed GK verb tenses, and try and act as if though what one presents as the only meanings of GK words, we refuse to see the need or take the time or even refuse to simply look at or discuss simplistic moral principles universal in nature, that all men of reason recognize to be truth. We will spend post after post on the definition of GK words whilee refusing to even consider the fixed universla meanings of some basic words that in all languages retain the same meanings, words like liberty and necessity.

There is only one verse that comes to mind to describe such a state of mind. Jesus ran into the very same mind set. Here is how he addressed them

Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Come on Biblicist. Show the list that such does not apply to yourself.:thumbsup:

1. Lost people are in the BONDAGE of sin - no liberty from indwelling sin
2. Lost people are incapable of being good or doing good in God's sight
3. The intent/motives of the lost man are continually wicked
4. The will is nothing more than choice determined by the heart
5. The heart is the seat of intellectual and emotional desires -
6. The heart of man is separated from God
7. Salvation consists in being given a new heart and a new spirit
8. There is no liberty from what you are
9. Choices are free expressions of the heart

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Still, a clear refusal to carefully define the basic universal concepts of liberty and necessity. That says about all that is needed to say about your willingness and openness to seek the truth Biblicist.

 

[The Biblicist]

Still, a clear refusal to carefully define the basic universal concepts of liberty and necessity. That says about all that is needed to say about your willingness and openness to seek the truth Biblicist.

What do you think the word "bondage" means? Liberty???

What do you think internal inability to do or to be good means? Liberty or necessity?

 

[The Biblicist]

Still, a clear refusal to carefully define the basic universal concepts of liberty and necessity. That says about all that is needed to say about your willingness and openness to seek the truth Biblicist.

I have answered the issue of liberty and necessity many times over. What you want is to determine your own set of definitions and rules in order to force everyone else to play your mind game. If they don't conform to your definitions then they have no openess to seek truth as you define it. Sorry, but I don't play outside the Biblical boundaries when it comes to theology.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The intent/motives of the lost man are continually wicked.

Biblicist, in your opinion what constitutes a person being "lost"?

Are you saying that the intent/motives of the "unsaved" man is continually wicked?

Are you saying that a person comes out of the womb in a condition that can be described as "lost"?

Sorry, but I don't play outside the Biblical boundaries when it comes to theology.

And please quote passages from the Bible to support your answers.

Thanks!

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, in your opinion what constitutes a person being "lost"?

Are you saying that the intent/motives of the "unsaved" man is continually wicked?

Are you saying that a person comes out of the womb in a condition that can be described as "lost"?

And please quote passages from the Bible to support your answers.

Thanks!

Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psa. 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?


In regard to "intent" the only motive that is righteous before God is whatsoever ye say or do do all "for the glory of God"

All men by motive have "come short of the glory of God."

Man is born with a SELFISH heart and motive and everything he says and does originates from some other motive than "THE GLORY OF GOD."

Thus man is continually wicked by nature, by motive and thus by everything he says or does.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Psa. 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Can you not understand that figurative language is being employed in these verses? Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Of course this verse cannot be taken literally since babies do not speak lies as soon as they are born.

If a child comes out of the womb dead in sin then why would the Lord Jesus say the following in regard to little children?:

"Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.19:13-14).

Children are described as being "an heritage of the Lord":

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps.127:3).

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Again, common sense dictates that figuraitive language is being used because the Lord Jesus was in fact born of a woman in need of salvation. Why should anyone believe that a person is made is a state described as being dead in sin since the Lord Jesus is made like us:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Thus man is continually wicked by nature, by motive and thus by everything he says or does.

If you are right then we must believe that the Lord Jesus is wicked by nature since He was made like us in every way.

 

[The Biblicist]

Can you not understand that figurative language is being employed in these verses? Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

Yes, he is stating LITERAL truth and then reinforcing that LITERAL truth with SYMBOLS that were designed in the first place to teach that LITERAL truth. Hence, a convergence of literal truth confirmed by the symbols designed to portray that literal truth.

BTW if this is symbolic langauge then what are the truths being symbolized by physical birth and inquity?????

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course this verse cannot be taken literally since babies do not speak lies as soon as they are born.

PROOF: You do not have to train children to be bad - it comes by nature FROM BIRTH! Evil is not a learned behavior but is rooted in them from birth!

Oh yes they do! They do not have to learn a language to tell lies. They come into the world crying and complaining and act like they are dying when they don't get what they want.

If a child comes out of the womb dead in sin then why would the Lord Jesus say the following in regard to little children?:

"Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.19:13-14).

Children are described as being "an heritage of the Lord":

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps.127:3).

These are the same texts that paedobaptists attempt to infer infant baptism when it is a dry text.

The Lord's teaching on children begins in Matthew 18:1-6 where a child is placed on his lap as a living SIMILE or example of what kind of humility is required to enter the Kingdom of God. Here he changes from a SIMILE to a METAPHOR which uses the present tense verb to REPRESENT all true children of God in His kingdom.


Job's langauge teaches literal truth in regard to the inborn sinful nature that no one has to train from birth to be and do evil.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, he is stating LITERAL truth and then reinforcing that LITERAL truth with SYMBOLS that were designed in the first place to teach that LITERAL truth.

If a child comes out of the womb dead in sin then why would the Lord Jesus say the following in regard to little children?:

"Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.19:13-14).

Children are described as being "an heritage of the Lord":

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps.127:3).

Besides that, you failed to address what I said here:

Why should anyone believe that a person is made is a state described as being dead in sin since the Lord Jesus is made like us:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

When you finish discussing that then tell us why we should believe that people are born dead in sin with the following verses in view?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).

 

[The Biblicist]

If a child comes out of the womb dead in sin then why would the Lord Jesus say the following.....

Already answered! Read the remainder of the posts.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Already answered! Read the remainder of the posts.

You really consider that this actually answers the verses about children?:

These are the same texts that paedobaptists attempt to infer infant baptism when it is a dry text.

that answers nothing!

Now let us look at the verses again:

"Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.19:13-14).

Children are described as being "an heritage of the Lord":

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps.127:3).

Here is your attempt to answer the words of the Lord Jesus at Matthew 19:13-14:

The Lord's teaching on children begins in Matthew 18:1-6 where a child is placed on his lap as a living SIMILE or example of what kind of humility is required to enter the Kingdom of God. Here he changes from a SIMILE to a METAPHOR which uses the present tense verb to REPRESENT all true children of God in His kingdom.

The Lord Jesus words cannot be misunderstood. He speaks of the little children and then says, "for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

It is impossible that he would compare the "little children" to the "kingdom of heaven" if the little children were dead in sin!

And you said nothing about this verse:

"Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward" (Ps.127:3).

And of course you continue to even attempt to answer the following:

Why should anyone believe that a person is made is a state described as being dead in sin since the Lord Jesus is made like us?:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

When you finish discussing that then tell us why we should believe that people are born dead in sin with the following verses in view?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).

 

[The Biblicist]

You really consider that this actually answers the verses about children?:

that answers nothing!

.

Finish reading that post!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psa. 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?


In regard to "intent" the only motive that is righteous before God is whatsoever ye say or do do all "for the glory of God"

All men by motive have "come short of the glory of God."

Man is born with a SELFISH heart and motive and everything he says and does originates from some other motive than "THE GLORY OF GOD."

Thus man is continually wicked by nature, by motive and thus by everything he says or does.

HP: Let the reader note clearly that not a single passage that Biblicist sets forth states or implies his conclusion, i.e., that "man is born with a selfish heart."

Let us start with the first Scripture he tries to get to walk on all four legs in support of the dogma of original sin, Ps 58.




If one would take the time to read this short Psalm in it’s entirety, one would come to the plain truth that this Psalm was NOT written in any way to support some notion of original sin or inherited depravity, not only because of the context but the fact that the Jews did not hold to inherited depravity in the least. According to one of the best sources of Jewish understandin, Alfre Edersheim, there was abosolutely no place in their theology for any such a notion as original sin. Original sin was simply foreign to them.

Here is the truth of Psalm 58. The context of the Psalm clearly indicates two groups of individuals being addressed. From verse 3-9 David addresses the wicked and speaks clearly to their final destruction. David cries out to God to let “every one of them pass away that they may not see the sun.” He proclaims that God is going to destroy ‘all’ of them and wash His feet in their blood. Is DHK holding to the belief that God is going to wash His feet in the blood of innocent babies, millions of which are the product of the abortionist’s knife? God help us!

Starting with verse 10-11, David shifts his focus from the wicked and onto the RIGHTEOUS. He states, “10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

One thing is clear. David is not trying to establish a dogma of original sin in this text in the least, but rather is simply contrasting the wicked with the righteous. He in NO way insinuates or states that the righteous are as the wicked, neither in birth nor in life.

In simple terms, David was just expressing in poetic terms that the wicked appeared to be wicked from the earliest light of moral agency, and that as soon as they were able to understand and communicate, even from a very early age, they appeared to him to be engaging in wickedness. Nothing in this passage establishes any such idea as original sin would indicate and Biblicist wrongly assumes.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is yet another passage Biblicist tries in vain to use in support of original sin. Psalms 14:4

All that can be made out of this passage, is that a physically depraved women could only bring forth physically depraved offspring. Job was not dealing with the notion or moral depravity in the least in this passage. He was dealing with the dying and frail state of humanity. His whole focus of this passage was upon the frail PHYSICAL state of humanity. What he says is simply, how could a frail dying women bring forth anything other than frail dying offspring? No one can.
Biblicist is clearly long on straining gnats and short on close attention to reasonable context in the passages he tries to support the false notion of original sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Finish reading that post!

I have finished reading your post and I searched in vain for any place where you answered what I said here:

Why should anyone believe that a person is made is a state described as being dead in sin since the Lord Jesus is made like us in every way?:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Your whole idea in regard to the subject of this thead is based on the fiction that men are born dead in sin and when given a chance to defend that view by answering Hebrews 2:17 you refuse.

Frankly, I cannot take the ideas of anyone seriously if they refuse to even attempt to defend their ideas.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Biblicist is clearly long on straining gnats and short on close attention to reasonable context in the passages he tries to support the false notion of original sin.

Not only that but he refuses too even attempt to answer verses like the following one which demonstrate that his ideas are wrong:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: 1. Lost people are in the BONDAGE of sin - no liberty from indwelling sin
2. Lost people are incapable of being good or doing good in God's sight
3. The intent/motives of the lost man are continually wicked
4. The will is nothing more than choice determined by the heart
5. The heart is the seat of intellectual and emotional desires -
6. The heart of man is separated from God
7. Salvation consists in being given a new heart and a new spirit
8. There is no liberty from what you are
9. Choices are free expressions of the heart

Let the list note clearly the common tactic used by Biblicist in debate. When asked to simply define for the list the meanings and distinctions between the words 'liberty/freedom and necessity/bondage, here was his response. He simply diverts the topic to no less that 9 (NINE) doctrinal positions as opposed to providing a simple definition to two concepts universally known and recognized for both the Bible believing world as well as the heathen. Why is it that he is running so hard and fast from a simple request to give us a clear concise definition of these words/ concepts used throughout Scripture and in common parlance on a daily basis? Can he not even find a good GK dictionary he can quote from to aide in my simple request???:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JS: Not only that but he refuses too even attempt to answer verses like the following one which demonstrate that his ideas are wrong:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

HP: And a fine Lord's day to you and the entire list Jerry.

Oh how the Augustinian notion of original sin has infected even the clear teachings of the nature of Christ Himself. We have discussed that issue in depth before, and need to address that issue again at some point.