The Necessity of the Gospel

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

If anyone is confused with faith and hope it must be you. I certainly am not. Faith is dependent on knowledge. If it isn't then people have what is termed by many as "blind faith." That is what the Hindus have when they plunge themselves into the Ganges River with the "blind faith" that that river will wash away their sins. You might call that hope. Some would. But it is a blind faith because it is not based on knowledge. It is the same with the Roman Catholics who believe that the waters of baptism will wash away their sin--the same basic concept as the Hindus. They have no objective knowledge to base their belief, but have faith (not hope) that that is what happening. They don't hope that the sins are forgiven; they have faith that they are forgiven, for that is their belief. A belief is based on faith; not hope.

I believe that Christ died for my sins. I believe that when I put my faith and trust in his finished work that he will save me. That is faith not hope. It is faith because it is based in belief. The belief is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is one of the most historically attested facts of history. The belief is based on the gospel which we believe to be true. There is an intellectual basis for my belief. It is not blind. Therefore I have faith--faith that is based on belief. It is not hope--it is faith. "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." That is faith; not hope. "I know," not I hope. It is faith. I have the knowledge by faith.

Thus I used some other examples in daily living that I had hoped you would easily be able to understand. But unfortunately you didn't. When I start my car I have faith that it will start. My faith is based on knowledge. The knowledge here comes from different sources: it is empirical--I have done it many times before and it has not failed me (except for a couple of times). The knowledge is from the word of another. It is written in the handbook of the Ford Company. I have taken their word, that when I turn the ignition the car will start. Inasmuch as I take their word, based on their knowledge of the vehicle, I take God's Word--the knowledge I have of it.
God's Word is perfect. The knowledge that I have of salvation is sufficient enough for me to believe that when I put my faith (not hope) in the substutionary atonement of Christ he will save me. Thus faith and the atonement cannot be separated. One must have faith in the atonement to be saved. They cannot be separated and it has nothing to do with universalism.

If you believe that there are some that cannot be saved without the gospel, and that is true they cannot--I never said they could, then you are under obligation to go to them. You have consistently put words in my mouth, misaligned my position, and even inferred that I believe heresy. Continue to do so, and I will have to edit your posts. I expect you to debate an issue with respect and not to make innuendoes and inferences that are completely off base.

The fact remains that you have argued that someone could be saved a part from hearing the gospel, through the light they have in general revelation. Second, you still have faith and hope confused. Your above discription only further illustrates the fact that your discription of faith is nothing more than a discription of hope. You are importing secular meanings in order to arrive at your definition. However, the Bible describes faith and hope differently that what you explain. Hope is your belief in the atoning work of the cross. Faith is your action in repenting. By faith you respond to the message, but faith requires a response. That is where James states that faith without works is dead. Hope is the object of what you have faith in, or in this case the promise of eternal life.

DHK, you need to take a healthy dose of the humility pill and sit back and let me teach a thing or two. You are over your head trying to debate me, so try and not do that. Let's dialog, it will be better for your image. I really hate to correct you when you present yourself as such an expert to the board, as if you are better and smarter than yours truly.:laugh:

 

[DHK]

The fact remains that you have argued that someone could be saved a part from hearing the gospel, through the light they have in general revelation. Second, you still have faith and hope confused. Your above discription only further illustrates the fact that your discription of faith is nothing more than a discription of hope. You are importing secular meanings in order to arrive at your definition. However, the Bible describes faith and hope differently that what you explain. Hope is your belief in the atoning work of the cross. Faith is your action in repenting. By faith you respond to the message, but faith requires a response. That is where James states that faith without works is dead. Hope is the object of what you have faith in, or in this case the promise of eternal life.

DHK, you need to take a healthy dose of the humility pill and sit back and let me teach a thing or two. You are over your head trying to debate me, so try and not do that. Let's dialog, it will be better for your image. I really hate to correct you when you present yourself as such an expert to the board, as if you are better and smarter than yours truly.:laugh:

You are confused. You did not read my post carefully. Neither could you refute it with Scripture. Until you do that I have no need to answer the arrogancy of your post.

 

[El_Guero]

DHK

I know that I have agreed with you and I know that I have disagreed with you . . .

But pray tell what this was about?

The fact remains that you have argued that someone could be saved a part from hearing the gospel, through the light they have in general revelation. Second, you still have faith and hope confused. Your above discription only further illustrates the fact that your discription of faith is nothing more than a discription of hope. You are importing secular meanings in order to arrive at your definition. However, the Bible describes faith and hope differently that what you explain. Hope is your belief in the atoning work of the cross. Faith is your action in repenting. By faith you respond to the message, but faith requires a response. That is where James states that faith without works is dead. Hope is the object of what you have faith in, or in this case the promise of eternal life.

DHK, you need to take a healthy dose of the humility pill and sit back and let me teach a thing or two. You are over your head trying to debate me, so try and not do that. Let's dialog, it will be better for your image. I really hate to correct you when you present yourself as such an expert to the board, as if you are better and smarter than yours truly.:laugh:

Sounds like he hasn't left the play ground and his former gorilla tacktics behind himself, yet.

 

[El_Guero]

BPT,

I did not go back and read the rest of the posts, so I might have missed DHK kickin' up dirt in your face. And if he started this, I apologize for assuming from your post's context things that are out of context for the thread.

And while, I might have been closer to your side of the argumentation until you went for his jugular . . . You lost my support there.

The fact remains that you have argued that someone could be saved a part from hearing the gospel, through the light they have in general revelation. Second, you still have faith and hope confused. Your above discription only further illustrates the fact that your discription of faith is nothing more than a discription of hope. You are importing secular meanings in order to arrive at your definition. However, the Bible describes faith and hope differently that what you explain. Hope is your belief in the atoning work of the cross. Faith is your action in repenting. By faith you respond to the message, but faith requires a response. That is where James states that faith without works is dead. Hope is the object of what you have faith in, or in this case the promise of eternal life.

DHK, you need to take a healthy dose of the humility pill and sit back and let me teach a thing or two. You are over your head trying to debate me, so try and not do that. Let's dialog, it will be better for your image. I really hate to correct you when you present yourself as such an expert to the board, as if you are better and smarter than yours truly.:laugh:

 

[DHK]

DHK

I know that I have agreed with you and I know that I have disagreed with you . . .

But pray tell what this was about?

What is it about? The last part of his post that you high-lited you can conclude for yourself. I am tired of such arrogancy.
Besides that I am also tired of false accusations:
In the past he has accused me of being a universalist--that all will go to heaven--which of course I am not.
He refuses to accept my assertion that faith and the atonement are closely tied together, and comes to a false conclusion that I believe therefore that all will be saved, in spite of the fact that I have stated othewise.
I specifically said in my post that salvation is by Christ alone, and he continues to assert that I believe that one can be saved by general revelation alone.

So why the false accusations. If he doesn't understand either me or the English language he should ask for clarification, not resort to false accusations or to slander and innuendo as has been done in the past.
That is what this has been about El Guero. I try my best to present my case as carefully and objectively as possible, but I get mud in return.

 

[saturneptune]

BPT,

I did not go back and read the rest of the posts, so I might have missed DHK kickin' up dirt in your face. And if he started this, I apologize for assuming from your post's context things that are out of context for the thread.

And while, I might have been closer to your side of the argumentation until you went for his jugular . . . You lost my support there.

This cannot go on any longer. Moderators, it is time for some action with Baptist Pastor Theologean. Having stayed out of this guy's way for some time and observed, because at first I thought it was just me, it is time for this to end.

This has nothing to do with which side of the debate one takes. It has to do with arrogance, disrespect, contempt for authority, and downright meaness. When one disagrees with BPT, or crosses his path, he will go to the length of contacting the local church and saying that person is not saved, even a fellow deacon. He openly disrespects the authority of moderators, and drags them through the mud at every opportunity.

If one is so insecure in their arguments as to lash out like this, the thought comes up, is this person real. The thought has gone through my mind several times this person is not who he claims to be, either being a troll, or a child on their parents computer.

The posts are there from this guy for anyone to review. It is my opinion it is time to put a stop to it.

 

[Amy.G]

I agree with Saturnneptue. I have received an insult or two from bpt as well and they were undeserved. It's hard to believe he's a pastor with such a lack of grace and humility.

 

[El_Guero]

Well, I have not crossed him that I am aware of. And I pray that he is a little less agressive than you have indicated. But, if he is that aggressive with my church . . . he can call me direct - there is at least one advantage of being a church planter.

This cannot go on any longer. Moderators, it is time for some action with Baptist Pastor Theologean. Having stayed out of this guy's way for some time and observed, because at first I thought it was just me, it is time for this to end.

This has nothing to do with which side of the debate one takes. It has to do with arrogance, disrespect, contempt for authority, and downright meaness. When one disagrees with BPT, or crosses his path, he will go to the length of contacting the local church and saying that person is not saved, even a fellow deacon. He openly disrespects the authority of moderators, and drags them through the mud at every opportunity.

If one is so insecure in their arguments as to lash out like this, the thought comes up, is this person real. The thought has gone through my mind several times this person is not who he claims to be, either being a troll, or a child on their parents computer.

The posts are there from this guy for anyone to review. It is my opinion it is time to put a stop to it.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Be careful about pointing fingers because when you do there are three pointing back at you.:tongue3:

 

[blackbird]

This thread will close and is subject to content/character review.

Bro. David

 

[blackbird]

The fact remains that you have argued that someone could be saved a part from hearing the gospel, through the light they have in general revelation. Second, you still have faith and hope confused. Your above discription only further illustrates the fact that your discription of faith is nothing more than a discription of hope. You are importing secular meanings in order to arrive at your definition. However, the Bible describes faith and hope differently that what you explain. Hope is your belief in the atoning work of the cross. Faith is your action in repenting. By faith you respond to the message, but faith requires a response. That is where James states that faith without works is dead. Hope is the object of what you have faith in, or in this case the promise of eternal life.

DHK, you need to take a healthy dose of the humility pill and sit back and let me teach a thing or two. You are over your head trying to debate me, so try and not do that. Let's dialog, it will be better for your image. I really hate to correct you when you present yourself as such an expert to the board, as if you are better and smarter than yours truly.:laugh:

***Moderator's Public Warning***

Baptist Pastor/Theologian

You have been warned in the past by private confrontations --- this is a public warning

You are in violation of Baptist Board rule #3

You will refrain yourself from arrogant posting and you will act as a Believer toward those who may be debateing against you.

If you refuse --- you are subject to suspension and/or banning from this private board.

Blackbird
Moderator

 

[El_Guero]

Baptist Pastor/Theologian

Those are strong words.

I pray that you are man enough, servant of the Most High enough, humble enough, and teachable enough to grow.

You are in my prayers.

Wayne

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Baptist Pastor/Theologian

Those are strong words.

I pray that you are man enough, servant of the Most High enough, humble enough, and teachable enough to grow.

You are in my prayers.

Wayne

Wayne,

Wayne,

I can use all the prayers I can get, but I assure you that all is well with my soul. I have no regrets from putting these [Edited out derogatory/offensive name calling.] in their proper place. If anyone around needs to get a clue it is anyone who takes themselves so seriously that they are offended over the things I have said. I have not got the time nor concern to give a care about what anyone in here has to say when it comes to how they perceive my spiritual condition. If anyone in this board was authentic in their walk with Christ there would be personal attempts to dialog. I have as of yet received 0 PMs over this. But many in here have picked up stones. Christ dealt sufficiently enough with throwing stones that I do not think I really need to defend myself here. But thanks for sharing.

[Moderator's Note: Sir, you will not be permitted to post such derogatory and offensive personal attacks against your fellow posters and brothers and sisters in Christ. This is an open attempt at dialogue. You made your offensive post in public and it will be addressed in public. You are hereby given notice that you are in violation of BB posting rules 3 and 4. If I see you in any further violation of the BB posting rules I will be calling upon the BB Administrative Council for you to receive a 10 day suspension from the message board. Yours in Christ, Bible-boy, Forum Moderator]

 

[El_Guero]

You are welcome.

Wayne,

I can use all the prayers I can get, but I assure you that all is well with my soul. I have no regrets from putting these bush leaguers in their proper place. If anyone around needs to get a clue it is anyone who takes themselves so seriously that they are offended over the things I have said. I have not got the time nor concern to give a care about what anyone in here has to say when it comes to how they perceive my spiritual condition. If anyone in this board was authentic in their walk with Christ there would be personal attempts to dialog. I have as of yet received 0 PMs over this. But many in here have picked up stones. Christ dealt sufficiently enough with throwing stones that I do not think I really need to defend myself here. But thanks for sharing.:thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

Member...(for now...)

 

[saturneptune]

Quote by you, Baptist Pastor Theologean:
If anyone around needs to get a clue it is anyone who takes themselves so seriously that they are offended over the things I have said. I have not got the time nor concern to give a care about what anyone in here has to say when it comes to how they perceive my spiritual condition. If anyone in this board was authentic in their walk with Christ there would be personal attempts to dialog.


You just dont get it do you, even after the warnings. It is my hope that lots are praying for you. Advanced degrees and theolgocial theories do not produce fruits of the Spirit.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Quote by you, Baptist Pastor Theologean:
If anyone around needs to get a clue it is anyone who takes themselves so seriously that they are offended over the things I have said. I have not got the time nor concern to give a care about what anyone in here has to say when it comes to how they perceive my spiritual condition. If anyone in this board was authentic in their walk with Christ there would be personal attempts to dialog.


You just dont get it do you, even after the warnings. It is my hope that lots are praying for you. Advanced degrees and theolgocial theories do not produce fruits of the Spirit.

Let's review the facts:
First, DHK is the one who has shown egregious disrespect, despite what Blackbird or anyone else seems to think.

You don't know people on this board very well. You are very pompous and trust more in your education rather than in Christ. At least that is my assessment.
I am not going to tell you how many degrees I have, nor how many years of post-secondary education I have taken, but I willing to guess that (considering your age which is in your profile) that it is more than you.
As far as I am concerned I was saved as an adult and have been studying at the foot of Jesus for more years than you have been alive. If I were you I would tread softly.
DHK

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=34575&page=12
Go back read his comment in the context and you tell me what I did to deserve the above statement?

So I ask you, who is out of line here?

Yet, according to Blackbird, I am the one in need of correction. Yet in every instance where I counter DHK he contributed to the exchange whole heartedly. But that fact is not being pointed out.

Second, as for you Mike, aka saturneptune, you are like the waves of the sea. One minute you cannot stand me and the next you are sending me PMs wanting to just start over. If anyone needs prayer here it is you. You challenged me to fight over one of the issue we were discussing in here. You have admitted that you lost your temper when you wrote me the following threat.

Any time you would like my address so you can come visit and call me a "church lady" to my face, just let me know.

So I have sharp tongue, but I do not mean anyone any harm. I maybe as hard as goat's breath but I am sold out to Jesus. Can we same the same for someone who would threated to beat up a pastor?

And for the record your friend Tom Butler is a member of this board. So stop accusing me of contacting people from your church. You make it sound as if I went outside the board and directly contacted people at your church in Paducah, KY. Now I have the connections to send everyone of your posts to your church office if I would like, but that is not my style. Me and Tom simply have shared kind words with one another, which is perfectly normal for someone who is as active as Tom Butler is Mike. You are not the only one on this board from your church so please leave that alone. It is a false representation of my intentions toward you, which are nothing but innocent. I have never had it in for you but you have from the start been an antagonist toward me.

 

[saturneptune]

This is why I am "like the waves of the sea" in respect to you. Your posts infuriate me due to your lack of respect for any human being, that being well documented. Finally I decide to stop with you for a while, only observing, actually, just stumbling across the posts. After month after month of seeing your disrepect for others, especially moderators, whose job is to police this board, I guess I get enough and decide it is time to do something about it.

My relationship with Tom or my local church is really none of your business. If you send every thing I have written to the church office, I believe I would continue as a deacon, Sunday School teacher, and van driver. In case you care to the address is
East Baptist Church
2985 Old Husbands Rd
Paducah KY 42003

Anyway, these are the facts.
1. DHK and blackbird have never been anything but helpful to me in guiding me with attitude and posts.
2. You in fact did contact a fellow deacon at my church and told him that I needed to be saved because of disagreements with you.
3. Your treatment of others is mean, vindictive, hateful, and lacking every characteristic of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
4. If your ministry is what you say, then you should be held to a higher standard of conduct than any of us. Just guessing, but there is greater than a 50-50 chance that you are not who you say you are, either that, or there is a great disconnect between your behavior here and your church/school. If you were our pastor, you would last about one week.

You are still wet behind the ears, so to speak. You MAY have lots of head knowledge of Scripture, but no heart knowledge.

 

[Bible-boy]

This thread is being closed for review by the BB Administrative Council.