The Necessity of the Gospel

No I'm not. It may be foreign to the reformed understanding but it is not foreign the accurate rendering of the text. That Salvation is of God and not man does NOT in ANY form extend to faith EVEN though they are intertwined in the event. Man has to believe (it is mans part according to Gods decree) but man can not believe unless God by Grace provide (salvation) what man can not aquire or do himself.

Show me ANY scripture that states faith is works unless it is a faith from God. Faith is faith is faith.
Faith IS NOT a work and this scripture proves it, regardless of if you will see it for the scripture plainly spells it out. James gives the same type of statement that Faith without ---- (what is the word here, yep that's right) Works. Faith IS NOT works.

I always thought scrpture was pretty specific that faith comes by hears and hearing by the Word of God - or do you disagree?
I believe that work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal (as says the scriptures) that whosoever will believe... The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and not just the elect. Try not to force your theological views into the text, especially when it doesn't fit brother.

 

I'm hear to learn...

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Does faith equal works in this verse?

 

The acceptance of a gift is not of yourself. Faith is the acceptance of God's Gift.

This statment negates faith alltogether.

This reformed strawman has been refuted numerous times. Prove it.

It is in whole, but not in part. Scripture doesn't state in part.

 

Hi Baptist Pastor;

Spiritual Death, is separation from God. It isn't like physical death at all as we see it. We see a dead man and know he is no longer animate. He doesn't hear, see, or know of his surroundings. The reason is, he no longer has the spirit that made him live. Our bodies are like the clothing we wear. Death is separation from the physical, and separation from God.

We have Salvation because of the faith of Jesus Christ. We are saved by His faith. His sacrifice made Salvation possible.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Our belief is a result of being convinced of the truth of Christ. First comes belief, then the faith of Christ, then Grace, and it is still all of God. You're right that it is all a gift, even the convincing. Our part in all of this is listening in order to be convinced. We can still reject the truth, most do. The rich man did when he couldn't sell all that he had, Matt 19:22 Agrippa did when almost became convinced through Paul, Act 26:28.
MB

 

Faith is not a gift. Faith is used every day, even by the unsaved. It is confidence in the word of another. If I put my key in the ignition of my car and turn it, I have faith (confidence) that it will start. If, perchance, the car doesn't start it is no reflection on my car, but rather the Ford Company who made the car. They are human. They are fallible. They make mistakes, and the cars they make are not perfect.
But I can put faith (confidence) in a perfect God, and his perfect word, and have perfect confidence that what he has said will certainly come to pass. That is the difference.

God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent. Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Hath he spoken and shall he not make it good? (Num.23:19).

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
The belief was not a gift. It was based on the word of Paul. He had confidence in what Paul was saying was true. That confidence came, in part, from the supernatural phenomena that accompanied his words. He was convinced that his message was true, and therefore believed. The faith that the jailor had was not of God. He, himself, put his faith, his confidence, in Christ.

 

Hi DHK;

I believe that it is a gift, and this is why.
Man is capable of faith but, it is always based on information given to him. The one giving him that information is God though it be by Missionary, preacher, witness or God's word alone. So if you think about it, God is responsible for our believing in Him. We wouldn't or couldn't know of God any other way that I know of.
I also believe that man has a measure of faith and is able to trust in others and even Jesus Christ.
Paul in Gal.2:16 says we are "justified by the faith of Jesus Christ". When we put on that new man "the righteousness of Christ" it is the faith of Christ that justifies us all. Of course we have our own faith but, it isn't our faith that justifies us. We do have our own faith as I said before this faith is what allows us to put on the righteousness of Christ. Even though we have our belief in Him, we can only have it as a result of being convinced of the truth by the Holy Spirit working on us. This is why I see the whole of it as a gift.

You certainly can but first you must believe and trust and the only way this can happen is if you've been convinced of the truth of Christ.
Man doesn't have faith in something he knows nothing about. He must be convinced. That convincing is why we have belief, and faith. Then we trust.

Maybe I'm wrong after all I'm only human. If I am I'd be willing to listen. When we have scripture that says;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Can we really consider that we are saved as a result of any thing we've done? Shouldn't we also consider that if it is not of our selves as in verse 8. Then faith is part of the gift of Salvation.
My reasoning is guided by scripture in that it has to be in agreement with it's self. Since our faith, hope, and trust, is a direct result,or product of, the Holy Spirit convincing us. Then I can't claim it as mine. I have to admit that it is all of God,and is His gift for us.
None of this is against our will. God wins us over to Him, He never forces us.
Jesus Said;

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Our belief is the work of God and not our own work.
MB

 

Hello MB and welcome to BB. Although I realize we might at some time be at opposites, nevertheless it sounds like you're pretty careful with your doctrine. Keep up the good work!

I'm 100% with you on this issue of the faith of Christ. It's sad to think that some folks are depending on some human, natural-man faith to satisfy the wrath of God. What requirement of redemption was not paid by Christ? "Faith", say they.

There's no way around it - a universal atonement is an insufficient atonement. It must be added to by man's faith.

Definite atonement, however, actually saves the elect. Saving faith (as compared to common faith) was purchased for us by Christ - His faith satisfied the requirements of the Father - and that saving faith was imparted into the hearts of the elect by the work of the Holy Spirit, and faith is born into our conscience through the preaching of the word.

 

Why not use a magneto and a manual start?

 

JD your lack of understanding and mischaractorization of bretheren who do not hold you VIEW of truth is what is sad to see here in.
I personall do not (and Many on here will agree for themselves) believe we are depending on anything other than that of the absolutely finished, completed, and thoroughly established work of Christ that that is the absolute satisfaction of Gods wrath.

There was no requirment NOT paid by Christ but there is a requirement to be saved - Believe or Faith! But unless we 'believe' THERE IS NO SALVATION TO ANYONE. Both Cal and Non-Cal affirm this, unfortunatley you assume based on the Calvinistic view that since it MUST be limited atonement there must be some other answer than God saying whosoever will...
I've got some interesting news for you about this view you hold - it is one not held by many in the main of those who you call founders of the Reformed thoughts - that being of limited attonement; or of early Christian Fathers.
Please Note the following:

 

Allen, I didn't mean to rile you up, really I didn't. But the doctrine of definite atonement has become dear to my heart ever since I read (with much effort) John Owens "Death of Death". I see anything not attributed to Christ alone, such as when some people attribute saving faith to themselves, as a terrible blasphemy (though it may be unintentional). What we need to understand is that saving faith originates in Christ, and those of us that believe only do so by the gift of God.

That was an impressive array of luminaries you've quoted against me. However, I would point out that I have not referenced any of those men in my post. The only one of those I've even studied from is Luther, and that is limited to his "Bondage of the Will" - a work of which you may have a hard time finding agreement.

Owens' treatise on the conundrum of general redemption has never been answered by those holding to it and never will. The notion of universal (general) atonement will always lead you to an insufficient atonement.

Again, not meant to rile you. Just the facts.

 

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

Hi JD;

Thank you for the welcome.

We are saved by the Faith of Christ but this does not lessen mans responsibility. Mans believing in Christ is necessary to be sure. Although this faith of man isn't what saves us. It's necessary that the man be submissive so that he can have the faith of Christ.
The faith that man has, is created in man through the convincing of the Holy Spirit. It isn't something man thought up on his own but acquires it through the listening of the Word of God. Romans 10:17 You see we still have to have enough faith to put on the righteousness of Christ. His righteousness and faith is what justifies us. It's what God sees in his judgment of us and why we aren't even judged for our sins.
Our faith on the other hand is riddle with doubt. We don't even have the faith of the mustard seed. Perfect faith I believe is what is required for Salvation and the only perfect faith there is, is the faith of Jesus Christ. It is in His righteousness where pure saving faith exist.

I believe that the atonement only benefits those who accept the truth of Christ. I believe anyone can through an act of there own will accept Christ. The clear reason so many don't in my opinion is they literally run from the light of Christ. It's there decision to avoid the light at all cost. Even the name of Christ is offensive to those who avoid it. Even His precious name is a convicting light. What a Savior!, what a God!. Even His name is a powerful statement.

Election is a part of Salvation that has confused many. Some assume they are elect because they believe. While this maybe true, I don't believe that election means we will be saved. Who is elect then? Christ said;
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Christ came and sacrificed Himself for our sins that we might be saved. The word "might" suggest that conditions must be met. In other words there is still the possibility that we might not be saved. Christ was sent here that the world could be saved,,,, not would be. We are first chosen by God in this verse above, to and for Salvation. This choosing doesn't mean we will be saved, because we are chosen. There is still that requirement of being willing to submit. To submit as James said in;
Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
And as Paul said in;
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Submission is the requirement. We must believe what we've been told in order to submit. We must believe in Christ inorder to trust in Him. Surrender is what the rich man couldn't do in Matt 19:22. He couldn't give up his possessions even though it meant the destruction of his own soul. I'm sure most would have to agree, if he had done what Christ told him to do, He would have been saved. He just couldn't submit.

Submitting to God as ruler, means we give up our resistance to God. We let Him work on us and through us. It was a humbling experience for me to realize that all my efforts are worthless with out God. We truly are helpless with out Him. Everything we have belongs to Him even our own souls. He Loves us and wants us to love Him. He wants our trust and if we trust Him we will submit to Him. Our submission is that trust.
MB

 

I think, first, we need to know who "eklegomai, eklektos, and ekloge" (elect) refer to in context of Scripture. If you can show where these terms...God's "elect"... refer to anyone other than Jews, that would be a start. In terms of man (there is mention of God's elect angels) I believe context demands they are in reference to Jews.

 

If anyone is confused with faith and hope it must be you. I certainly am not. Faith is dependent on knowledge. If it isn't then people have what is termed by many as "blind faith." That is what the Hindus have when they plunge themselves into the Ganges River with the "blind faith" that that river will wash away their sins. You might call that hope. Some would. But it is a blind faith because it is not based on knowledge. It is the same with the Roman Catholics who believe that the waters of baptism will wash away their sin--the same basic concept as the Hindus. They have no objective knowledge to base their belief, but have faith (not hope) that that is what happening. They don't hope that the sins are forgiven; they have faith that they are forgiven, for that is their belief. A belief is based on faith; not hope.

I believe that Christ died for my sins. I believe that when I put my faith and trust in his finished work that he will save me. That is faith not hope. It is faith because it is based in belief. The belief is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is one of the most historically attested facts of history. The belief is based on the gospel which we believe to be true. There is an intellectual basis for my belief. It is not blind. Therefore I have faith--faith that is based on belief. It is not hope--it is faith. "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." That is faith; not hope. "I know," not I hope. It is faith. I have the knowledge by faith.

Thus I used some other examples in daily living that I had hoped you would easily be able to understand. But unfortunately you didn't. When I start my car I have faith that it will start. My faith is based on knowledge. The knowledge here comes from different sources: it is empirical--I have done it many times before and it has not failed me (except for a couple of times). The knowledge is from the word of another. It is written in the handbook of the Ford Company. I have taken their word, that when I turn the ignition the car will start. Inasmuch as I take their word, based on their knowledge of the vehicle, I take God's Word--the knowledge I have of it.
God's Word is perfect. The knowledge that I have of salvation is sufficient enough for me to believe that when I put my faith (not hope) in the substutionary atonement of Christ he will save me. Thus faith and the atonement cannot be separated. One must have faith in the atonement to be saved. They cannot be separated and it has nothing to do with universalism.

If you believe that there are some that cannot be saved without the gospel, and that is true they cannot--I never said they could, then you are under obligation to go to them. You have consistently put words in my mouth, misaligned my position, and even inferred that I believe heresy. Continue to do so, and I will have to edit your posts. I expect you to debate an issue with respect and not to make innuendoes and inferences that are completely off base.

 

Hi Baptist Pastor;