The Necessity of the Gospel

[Allan]

You are imposing a hermenuetical approach that is foreign to the original meaning of the text. The fact is that salvation is by grace through faith. Grace is the type of salvation and faith is the means of salvation but both are equally important and both are interconnected. By saying that salvation is not of yourself that would have to extend to faith. If faith were of yourself then it would be a work. Therefore if you have faith it is a gift of God. Why is it a gift? You cannot have faith without God. Faith comes through the work of the Holy Spirit. Do you disagree?

No I'm not. It may be foreign to the reformed understanding but it is not foreign the accurate rendering of the text. That Salvation is of God and not man does NOT in ANY form extend to faith EVEN though they are intertwined in the event. Man has to believe (it is mans part according to Gods decree) but man can not believe unless God by Grace provide (salvation) what man can not aquire or do himself.

Show me ANY scripture that states faith is works unless it is a faith from God. Faith is faith is faith.
Faith IS NOT a work and this scripture proves it, regardless of if you will see it for the scripture plainly spells it out. James gives the same type of statement that Faith without ---- (what is the word here, yep that's right) Works. Faith IS NOT works.

I always thought scrpture was pretty specific that faith comes by hears and hearing by the Word of God - or do you disagree?
I believe that work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal (as says the scriptures) that whosoever will believe... The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and not just the elect. Try not to force your theological views into the text, especially when it doesn't fit brother.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

No I'm not. It may be foreign to the reformed understanding but it is not foreign the accurate rendering of the text. That Salvation is of God and not man does NOT in ANY form extend to faith EVEN though they are intertwined in the event. Man has to believe (it is mans part according to Gods decree) but man can not believe unless God by Grace provide (salvation) what man can not aquire or do himself.

Show me ANY scripture that states faith is works unless it is a faith from God. Faith is faith is faith.
Faith IS NOT a work and this scripture proves it, regardless of if you will see it for the scripture plainly spells it out. James gives the same type of statement that Faith without ---- (what is the word here, yep that's right) Works. Faith IS NOT works.

I always thought scrpture was pretty specific that faith comes by hears and hearing by the Word of God - or do you disagree?
I believe that work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal (as says the scriptures) that whosoever will believe... The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and not just the elect. Try not to force your theological views into the text, especially when it doesn't fit brother.

Be careful of throwing stones when you live in glass house. The fact is that salvation grace and faith all are given as indicative of the gift of God. The literal wording of the original language is "For by you are having been saved through faith; and this is not of you, but is of God the gift; not of works, that not anyone should boast."

Allan, you can get all preachy if you want but you are not dealing with someone who has never been down this road before. I understand entirely your position, I used to hold to the same view that you do. This text of Scripture when read properly will not support your view. Salvation is not meritorious and therefore there is no provision for man's part as you put it. Man has no part in salvation except through the God/Man Jesus Christ. When it says that this is not of you, that means something. You are wanting to put emphasis on one aspect of what is stated without putting emphasis on the other. There is no way to do that through exegesis. Now eisegete the text all you want, but just know that you are not allowing for a natural reading of the text. When reading simply the text states that salvation through faith is not of yourself but a gift of God. Therefore faith as a part of salvation is a gift.

Now as to your mention of James. Faith without works is dead has nothing to do with Eph. 2:8-9. Eph. is making reference to the fact that salvation is not meritorious. James is making reference to the fact that genuine salvation produces fruit. I am here to help...

 

[Blammo]

I'm hear to learn...

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Does faith equal works in this verse?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I'm hear to learn...

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Does faith equal works in this verse?

Blammo, you are one of my favorites here at BB. You always seem to get to the kernel of truth that is at the heart of the matter.

Faith is logizetai or accounted for righteousness. Now if faith is of yourself, then salvation is of yourself. Our righteous though according to Romans 4:5 is an alien righteous or a righteous outside ourselves. The righteous is not in anyway attributable to the one who has faith. Now if faith were your part then you would have some role or part in salvation. Yet, Eph. makes it very clear that you do not. Salvation through faith is a gift, both full and each in part.

 

[webdog]

Now if faith is of yourself, then salvation is of yourself.

The acceptance of a gift is not of yourself. Faith is the acceptance of God's Gift.

Our righteous though according to Romans 4:5 is an alien righteous or a righteous outside ourselves. The righteous is not in anyway attributable to the one who has faith.

This statment negates faith alltogether.

Now if faith were your part then you would have some role or part in salvation.

This reformed strawman has been refuted numerous times. Prove it.

Salvation through faith is a gift, both full and each in part.

It is in whole, but not in part. Scripture doesn't state in part.

 

[MB]

Hi Baptist Pastor;

If we debate Calvinism, let's keep it surrounding the depravity of man, and try and stay away from limited atonement. This discussion is to debate the fact that man is either dead in his sin and therefore in need of revival from God or he is mortally wounded and in need only in need of assistance.

Spiritual Death, is separation from God. It isn't like physical death at all as we see it. We see a dead man and know he is no longer animate. He doesn't hear, see, or know of his surroundings. The reason is, he no longer has the spirit that made him live. Our bodies are like the clothing we wear. Death is separation from the physical, and separation from God.

It would seem to me that grace is the type of salvation, as opposed to merit and faith is the means of salvation, as opposed to works. In other words this is a salvation of grace that is not merited and it is through faith and not works that you are awarded salvation. Now if salvation is a gift that means that the grace as well as the faith are both apart of that gift. Therefore since this salvation is not of yourself the faith cannot be claimed as of yourself either. It is apparent that faith is a gift.

We have Salvation because of the faith of Jesus Christ. We are saved by His faith. His sacrifice made Salvation possible.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Our belief is a result of being convinced of the truth of Christ. First comes belief, then the faith of Christ, then Grace, and it is still all of God. You're right that it is all a gift, even the convincing. Our part in all of this is listening in order to be convinced. We can still reject the truth, most do. The rich man did when he couldn't sell all that he had, Matt 19:22 Agrippa did when almost became convinced through Paul, Act 26:28.
MB

 

[DHK]

Faith is not a gift. Faith is used every day, even by the unsaved. It is confidence in the word of another. If I put my key in the ignition of my car and turn it, I have faith (confidence) that it will start. If, perchance, the car doesn't start it is no reflection on my car, but rather the Ford Company who made the car. They are human. They are fallible. They make mistakes, and the cars they make are not perfect.
But I can put faith (confidence) in a perfect God, and his perfect word, and have perfect confidence that what he has said will certainly come to pass. That is the difference.

God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent. Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Hath he spoken and shall he not make it good? (Num.23:19).

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
The belief was not a gift. It was based on the word of Paul. He had confidence in what Paul was saying was true. That confidence came, in part, from the supernatural phenomena that accompanied his words. He was convinced that his message was true, and therefore believed. The faith that the jailor had was not of God. He, himself, put his faith, his confidence, in Christ.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Faith is not a gift. Faith is used every day, even by the unsaved. It is confidence in the word of another. If I put my key in the ignition of my car and turn it, I have faith (confidence) that it will start. If, perchance, the car doesn't start it is no reflection on my car, but rather the Ford Company who made the car. They are human. They are fallible. They make mistakes, and the cars they make are not perfect.
But I can put faith (confidence) in a perfect God, and his perfect word, and have perfect confidence that what he has said will certainly come to pass. That is the difference.

God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent. Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Hath he spoken and shall he not make it good? (Num.23:19).

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
The belief was not a gift. It was based on the word of Paul. He had confidence in what Paul was saying was true. That confidence came, in part, from the supernatural phenomena that accompanied his words. He was convinced that his message was true, and therefore believed. The faith that the jailor had was not of God. He, himself, put his faith, his confidence, in Christ.

DHK,

I am not trying to argue with you over your obvious belief in the atoning work of Jesus. I would never want to argue against the very essential and indispensable role of the gospel. What I will add to what you are stating is that you have faith and hope confused. If you take your above discussion and insert the word hope for faith in most cases I think you have it right. Faith is similar to hope but not the same thing.

 

[MB]

Hi DHK;

Faith is not a gift. Faith is used every day, even by the unsaved. It is confidence in the word of another.

I believe that it is a gift, and this is why.
Man is capable of faith but, it is always based on information given to him. The one giving him that information is God though it be by Missionary, preacher, witness or God's word alone. So if you think about it, God is responsible for our believing in Him. We wouldn't or couldn't know of God any other way that I know of.
I also believe that man has a measure of faith and is able to trust in others and even Jesus Christ.
Paul in Gal.2:16 says we are "justified by the faith of Jesus Christ". When we put on that new man "the righteousness of Christ" it is the faith of Christ that justifies us all. Of course we have our own faith but, it isn't our faith that justifies us. We do have our own faith as I said before this faith is what allows us to put on the righteousness of Christ. Even though we have our belief in Him, we can only have it as a result of being convinced of the truth by the Holy Spirit working on us. This is why I see the whole of it as a gift.

But I can put faith (confidence) in a perfect God, and his perfect word, and have perfect confidence that what he has said will certainly come to pass. That is the difference.

You certainly can but first you must believe and trust and the only way this can happen is if you've been convinced of the truth of Christ.
Man doesn't have faith in something he knows nothing about. He must be convinced. That convincing is why we have belief, and faith. Then we trust.

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
The belief was not a gift. It was based on the word of Paul. He had confidence in what Paul was saying was true. That confidence came, in part, from the supernatural phenomena that accompanied his words. He was convinced that his message was true, and therefore believed. The faith that the jailor had was not of God. He, himself, put his faith, his confidence, in Christ.

Maybe I'm wrong after all I'm only human. If I am I'd be willing to listen. When we have scripture that says;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Can we really consider that we are saved as a result of any thing we've done? Shouldn't we also consider that if it is not of our selves as in verse 8. Then faith is part of the gift of Salvation.
My reasoning is guided by scripture in that it has to be in agreement with it's self. Since our faith, hope, and trust, is a direct result,or product of, the Holy Spirit convincing us. Then I can't claim it as mine. I have to admit that it is all of God,and is His gift for us.
None of this is against our will. God wins us over to Him, He never forces us.
Jesus Said;

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Our belief is the work of God and not our own work.
MB

 

[J.D.]

Hello MB and welcome to BB. Although I realize we might at some time be at opposites, nevertheless it sounds like you're pretty careful with your doctrine. Keep up the good work!

I'm 100% with you on this issue of the faith of Christ. It's sad to think that some folks are depending on some human, natural-man faith to satisfy the wrath of God. What requirement of redemption was not paid by Christ? "Faith", say they.

There's no way around it - a universal atonement is an insufficient atonement. It must be added to by man's faith.

Definite atonement, however, actually saves the elect. Saving faith (as compared to common faith) was purchased for us by Christ - His faith satisfied the requirements of the Father - and that saving faith was imparted into the hearts of the elect by the work of the Holy Spirit, and faith is born into our conscience through the preaching of the word.

 

[El_Guero]

Why not use a magneto and a manual start?

In the thread where we were discussing the indispensable nature of the gospel, a point came up that justifies more debate. The point was that someone can respond to the light they have. I have offered a discussion on the difference between general and special revelation, that is God's part. What really could be hashed out more is man's part.

So let me offer an analogy, and tell me what you think is the case. If a car cannot start on it's own because the battery does not have sufficient power to crank the car, then what role does the battery play in cranking the car if it gets a jump start? Now the possible range is the battery is completely void of power and offers no juice, all the way to the battery is almost there but needs a little spark to get the car going.

It seems to me that apart from a jolt of power, ie the Word of God, the car is going no where.

If we debate Calvinism, let's keep it surrounding the depravity of man, and try and stay away from limited atonement. This discussion is to debate the fact that man is either dead in his sin and therefore in need of revival from God or he is mortally wounded and in need only in need of assistance.

One Scripture that I would offer for consideration is Eph. 2:8-9.



It would seem to me that grace is the type of salvation, as opposed to merit and faith is the means of salvation, as opposed to works. In other words this is a salvation of grace that is not merited and it is through faith and not works that you are awarded salvation. Now if salvation is a gift that means that the grace as well as the faith are both apart of that gift. Therefore since this salvation is not of yourself the faith cannot be claimed as of yourself either. It is apparent that faith is a gift.

Therefore I conclude that the battery is dead without hope of charging and the only way to crank the car is through replacing the battery.

 

[Allan]

of[/B] Christ. It's sad to think that some folks are depending on some human, natural-man faith to satisfy the wrath of God. What requirement of redemption was not paid by Christ? "Faith", say they.

JD your lack of understanding and mischaractorization of bretheren who do not hold you VIEW of truth is what is sad to see here in.
I personall do not (and Many on here will agree for themselves) believe we are depending on anything other than that of the absolutely finished, completed, and thoroughly established work of Christ that that is the absolute satisfaction of Gods wrath.

There was no requirment NOT paid by Christ but there is a requirement to be saved - Believe or Faith! But unless we 'believe' THERE IS NO SALVATION TO ANYONE. Both Cal and Non-Cal affirm this, unfortunatley you assume based on the Calvinistic view that since it MUST be limited atonement there must be some other answer than God saying whosoever will...
I've got some interesting news for you about this view you hold - it is one not held by many in the main of those who you call founders of the Reformed thoughts - that being of limited attonement; or of early Christian Fathers.
Please Note the following:

I posted this not long ago as it was compiled by Ron Rhodes an avowed 4 point Calvinist:

Quotations from the Early Church Fathers
Clement of Alexandria (150-220): "Christ freely brings...salvation to the whole human race."

Eusebius (260-340): "It was needful that the Lamb of God should be offered for the other lambs whose nature He assumed, even for the whole human race."

Athanasius (293-373): "Christ the Son of God, having assumed a body like ours, because we were all exposed to death [which takes in more than the elect], gave Himself up to death for us all as a sacrifice to His Father."

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "Do not wonder if the whole world was ransomed, for He was not a mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God."

Gregory of Nazianzen (324-389): "The sacrifice of Christ is an imperishable expiation of the whole world."

Basil (330-379): "But one thing was found that was equivalent to all men....the holy and precious blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He poured out for us all."

Ambrose (340-407): "Christ suffered for all, rose again for all. But if anyone does not believe in Christ, he deprives himself of that general benefit."
He also said, "Christ came for the salvation of all, and undertook the redemption of all, inasmuch as He brought a remedy by which all might escape, although there are many who...are unwilling to be healed."

Augustine (354-430): Though Augustine is often cited as supporting limited atonement, there are also clear statements in Augustine's writings that are supportive of unlimited atonement. For example: "The Redeemer came and gave the price, shed His blood, and bought the world. Do you ask what He bought? See what He gave, and find what He bought. The blood of Christ is the price: what is of so great worth? What, but the whole world? What, but all nations?"
He also stated, "The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of all sins."

Cyril of Alexandria (376-444): "The death of one flesh is sufficient for the ransom of the whole human race, for it belonged to the Logos, begotten of God the Father."

Prosper (a friend and disciple of Augustine who died in 463): "As far as relates to the magnitude and virtue of the price, and to the one cause of the human race, the blood of Christ is the redemption of the whole world: but those who pass through this life without the faith of Christ, and the sacrament of regeneration, do not partake of the redemption."
He also said, "The Savior is most rightly said to have been crucified for the redemption of the whole world." He then said, "Although the blood of Christ be the ransom of the whole world, yet they are excluded from its benefit, who, being delighted with their captivity, are unwilling to be redeemed by it."

Quotations from the Reformers of the 16th Century
Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."

Philip Melanchton (1497-1560): "It is necessary to know that the Gospel is a universal promise, that is, that reconciliation is offered and promised to all mankind. It is necessary to hold that this promise is universal, in opposition to any dangerous imaginations on predestination, lest we should reason this promise pertains to a few others and ourselves. But we declare that the promise of the Gospel is universal. And to this are brought those universal expressions which are used constantly in the Scriptures."

Other people involved to some degree in the Reformation who held to unlimited atonement include: Hugh Latimer, Myles Coverdale, Thomas Cranmer, Wolfgang Musculus, Henry Bullinger, Benedict Aretius, Thomas Becon, Jerome Zanchius, David Paraeus, and John Calvin.

Quotations from Other Luminaries from Recent Church History
Philip Schaff: "His saving grace flows and overflows to all and for all, on the simple condition of faith....If, by the grace of God, I could convert a single skeptic to a childlike faith in Him who lived and died for me and for all, I would feel that I had not lived in vain."

B. F. Westcott: "Potentially, the work of Christ extends to the whole world." And "the love of God is without limit on His part, but to appropriate the blessing of love, man must fulfill the necessary condition of faith."

A. T. Robertson: [The word "world" in John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world" - means] "the whole cosmos of men, including the Gentiles, the whole human race," and adds that "this universal aspect of God's love appears also in II Cor. 5:19; Rom. 5:8."

Tidbits
The 6th council in Constantinople (680-681) declared, "Wherefore we confess two wills and two operations, concurring most fitly in him for the salvation of the human race."

The reformers, and certainly the children of the reformers, were not united on this matter. It is, of course, no secret to the student of the Reformation that the Lutheran branch almost without exception embraced the unlimited view. "But that Luther, Melanchthon, Osiander, Brentius, Oecoiampadius, Zwinglius and Bucer held to the doctrine of a general atonement...
Thus also, it was with their immediate successors, as the language of the Psalgrave Confession testifies.... 'Of the power and death of Christ, believe we,' say these German Christians, that the death of Christ (whilst he being not a bare man, but the Son of God, died,) is a full, all sufficient payment, not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. . . [James Richards, Lectures on Mental Philosophy and Theology (New York: M. W. Dodd, 1846) p. 304]

The Heidelberg Catechism (1563) of the German Reformed Church in answer to the thirty-seventh question, "What dost thou understand by the word Suffered?" has this answer: "That all the time he lived on earth, but especially at the end of his life, he bore, in body and soul, the wrath of God against the of the whole human race...."[pg 8]

John Calvins Commentaries: (During the later years of his life Calvin wrote his commentaries, which reveal some development of thought, and in which he avoided some of the extremes found in the Institutes.)
John 3:16, he said: ". . . The Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish.'' Concerning the term whosoever in the same verse, he said: "And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the impact of the term world, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favour of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.''

Such an understanding of this verse and the words employed in it is certainly not in keeping with many who claim to be Calvinists, as the following pages will reveal. Another illustration of Calvin's view is to be found in his explanation of:

Matthew 26:28. ". . .This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." He says: "Under the name of many he designates not a part of the world only, but the whole human race" [Underline is mine]

It is in fact it would be better held that Limited atonement was not popular UNTIL the Synod of Dort.

and with just a small addition:
Romans 5:18 says: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Regarding this verse, John Calvin says: "He makes this favor common to all, because it is propoundable to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all [i.e., in their experience]; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God's benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him."

Regarding the two occurrences of the phrase "all men," E. H. Gifford comments: "The words all men [in v. 18] must have the same extent in both clauses."

 

[J.D.]

JD your lack of understanding and mischaractorization of bretheren who do not hold you VIEW of truth is what is sad to see here in.
I personall do not (and Many on here will agree for themselves) believe we are depending on anything other than that of the absolutely finished, completed, and thoroughly established work of Christ that that is the absolute satisfaction of Gods wrath.

There was no requirment NOT paid by Christ but there is a requirement to be saved - Believe or Faith! But unless we 'believe' THERE IS NO SALVATION TO ANYONE. Both Cal and Non-Cal affirm this, unfortunatley you assume based on the Calvinistic view that since it MUST be limited atonement there must be some other answer than God saying whosoever will...
I've got some interesting news for you about this view you hold - it is one not held by many in the main of those who you call founders of the Reformed thoughts - that being of limited attonement; or of early Christian Fathers.
Please Note the following:

Allen, I didn't mean to rile you up, really I didn't. But the doctrine of definite atonement has become dear to my heart ever since I read (with much effort) John Owens "Death of Death". I see anything not attributed to Christ alone, such as when some people attribute saving faith to themselves, as a terrible blasphemy (though it may be unintentional). What we need to understand is that saving faith originates in Christ, and those of us that believe only do so by the gift of God.

That was an impressive array of luminaries you've quoted against me. However, I would point out that I have not referenced any of those men in my post. The only one of those I've even studied from is Luther, and that is limited to his "Bondage of the Will" - a work of which you may have a hard time finding agreement.

Owens' treatise on the conundrum of general redemption has never been answered by those holding to it and never will. The notion of universal (general) atonement will always lead you to an insufficient atonement.

Again, not meant to rile you. Just the facts.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Allen, I didn't mean to rile you up, really I didn't. But the doctrine of definite atonement has become dear to my heart ever since I read (with much effort) John Owens "Death of Death". I see anything not attributed to Christ alone, such as when some people attribute saving faith to themselves, as a terrible blasphemy (though it may be unintentional). What we need to understand is that saving faith originates in Christ, and those of us that believe only do so by the gift of God.

That was an impressive array of luminaries you've quoted against me. However, I would point out that I have not referenced any of those men in my post. The only one of those I've even studied from is Luther, and that is limited to his "Bondage of the Will" - a work of which you may have a hard time finding agreement.

Owens' treatise on the conundrum of general redemption has never been answered by those holding to it and never will. The notion of universal (general) atonement will always lead you to an insufficient atonement.

Again, not meant to rile you. Just the facts.

This discussion is centered on the depravity of man. While there is certainly room to debate Calvinism, try to stay away from the limited atonement issue in this thread.

 

[Blammo]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[MB]

Hi JD;

Hello MB and welcome to BB. Although I realize we might at some time be at opposites, nevertheless it sounds like you're pretty careful with your doctrine. Keep up the good work!

Thank you for the welcome.

I'm 100% with you on this issue of the faith of Christ. It's sad to think that some folks are depending on some human, natural-man faith to satisfy the wrath of God. What requirement of redemption was not paid by Christ? "Faith", say they.

We are saved by the Faith of Christ but this does not lessen mans responsibility. Mans believing in Christ is necessary to be sure. Although this faith of man isn't what saves us. It's necessary that the man be submissive so that he can have the faith of Christ.
The faith that man has, is created in man through the convincing of the Holy Spirit. It isn't something man thought up on his own but acquires it through the listening of the Word of God. Romans 10:17 You see we still have to have enough faith to put on the righteousness of Christ. His righteousness and faith is what justifies us. It's what God sees in his judgment of us and why we aren't even judged for our sins.
Our faith on the other hand is riddle with doubt. We don't even have the faith of the mustard seed. Perfect faith I believe is what is required for Salvation and the only perfect faith there is, is the faith of Jesus Christ. It is in His righteousness where pure saving faith exist.

There's no way around it - a universal atonement is an insufficient atonement. It must be added to by man's faith.

I believe that the atonement only benefits those who accept the truth of Christ. I believe anyone can through an act of there own will accept Christ. The clear reason so many don't in my opinion is they literally run from the light of Christ. It's there decision to avoid the light at all cost. Even the name of Christ is offensive to those who avoid it. Even His precious name is a convicting light. What a Savior!, what a God!. Even His name is a powerful statement.

Definite atonement, however, actually saves the elect. Saving faith (as compared to common faith) was purchased for us by Christ - His faith satisfied the requirements of the Father - and that saving faith was imparted into the hearts of the elect by the work of the Holy Spirit, and faith is born into our conscience through the preaching of the word.

Election is a part of Salvation that has confused many. Some assume they are elect because they believe. While this maybe true, I don't believe that election means we will be saved. Who is elect then? Christ said;
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Christ came and sacrificed Himself for our sins that we might be saved. The word "might" suggest that conditions must be met. In other words there is still the possibility that we might not be saved. Christ was sent here that the world could be saved,,,, not would be. We are first chosen by God in this verse above, to and for Salvation. This choosing doesn't mean we will be saved, because we are chosen. There is still that requirement of being willing to submit. To submit as James said in;
Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
And as Paul said in;
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Submission is the requirement. We must believe what we've been told in order to submit. We must believe in Christ inorder to trust in Him. Surrender is what the rich man couldn't do in Matt 19:22. He couldn't give up his possessions even though it meant the destruction of his own soul. I'm sure most would have to agree, if he had done what Christ told him to do, He would have been saved. He just couldn't submit.

Submitting to God as ruler, means we give up our resistance to God. We let Him work on us and through us. It was a humbling experience for me to realize that all my efforts are worthless with out God. We truly are helpless with out Him. Everything we have belongs to Him even our own souls. He Loves us and wants us to love Him. He wants our trust and if we trust Him we will submit to Him. Our submission is that trust.
MB

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

John 8
I Am the Light of the World

21 So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” 25 So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.” 27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” 30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
The Truth Will Set You Free

31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave [2] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
You Are of Your Father the Devil

39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing what Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing what your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Before Abraham Was, I Am

48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ [3] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” [4] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

In the above passage it is obvious that faith or lack there of is tied to whether you are elect or not. I would like to get your reaction to this passage. But just let me highlight a few verses that I think are problematic for a freewill position.

23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

This points out that there are those from above and those from below... Also disproves any notion that someone will know God apart from belief in Jesus.

38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

Even though they are Israelites they are not God's children but their father is the Devil.

44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Because their father is the Devil their will is do his desires, ie non-elect do not desire God.

47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Moreover this implies that those who are of God hear his words, which has to be taken pre-conversion. If you are of God pre-conversion then you have to be elected to be God prior to faith.

 

[webdog]

In the above passage it is obvious that faith or lack there of is tied to whether you are elect or not. I would like to get your reaction to this passage.

I think, first, we need to know who "eklegomai, eklektos, and ekloge" (elect) refer to in context of Scripture. If you can show where these terms...God's "elect"... refer to anyone other than Jews, that would be a start. In terms of man (there is mention of God's elect angels) I believe context demands they are in reference to Jews.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I am not trying to argue with you over your obvious belief in the atoning work of Jesus. I would never want to argue against the very essential and indispensable role of the gospel. What I will add to what you are stating is that you have faith and hope confused. If you take your above discussion and insert the word hope for faith in most cases I think you have it right. Faith is similar to hope but not the same thing.

If anyone is confused with faith and hope it must be you. I certainly am not. Faith is dependent on knowledge. If it isn't then people have what is termed by many as "blind faith." That is what the Hindus have when they plunge themselves into the Ganges River with the "blind faith" that that river will wash away their sins. You might call that hope. Some would. But it is a blind faith because it is not based on knowledge. It is the same with the Roman Catholics who believe that the waters of baptism will wash away their sin--the same basic concept as the Hindus. They have no objective knowledge to base their belief, but have faith (not hope) that that is what happening. They don't hope that the sins are forgiven; they have faith that they are forgiven, for that is their belief. A belief is based on faith; not hope.

I believe that Christ died for my sins. I believe that when I put my faith and trust in his finished work that he will save me. That is faith not hope. It is faith because it is based in belief. The belief is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is one of the most historically attested facts of history. The belief is based on the gospel which we believe to be true. There is an intellectual basis for my belief. It is not blind. Therefore I have faith--faith that is based on belief. It is not hope--it is faith. "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." That is faith; not hope. "I know," not I hope. It is faith. I have the knowledge by faith.

Thus I used some other examples in daily living that I had hoped you would easily be able to understand. But unfortunately you didn't. When I start my car I have faith that it will start. My faith is based on knowledge. The knowledge here comes from different sources: it is empirical--I have done it many times before and it has not failed me (except for a couple of times). The knowledge is from the word of another. It is written in the handbook of the Ford Company. I have taken their word, that when I turn the ignition the car will start. Inasmuch as I take their word, based on their knowledge of the vehicle, I take God's Word--the knowledge I have of it.
God's Word is perfect. The knowledge that I have of salvation is sufficient enough for me to believe that when I put my faith (not hope) in the substutionary atonement of Christ he will save me. Thus faith and the atonement cannot be separated. One must have faith in the atonement to be saved. They cannot be separated and it has nothing to do with universalism.

If you believe that there are some that cannot be saved without the gospel, and that is true they cannot--I never said they could, then you are under obligation to go to them. You have consistently put words in my mouth, misaligned my position, and even inferred that I believe heresy. Continue to do so, and I will have to edit your posts. I expect you to debate an issue with respect and not to make innuendoes and inferences that are completely off base.

 

[MB]

Hi Baptist Pastor;

23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
This points out that there are those from above and those from below... Also disproves any notion that someone will know God apart from belief in Jesus.

Jesus is the only one that I see that is from above here. The words "I am from above" is not plural. It is true that we can't know God unless it is through Jesus. Jesus is the way.

44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Because their father is the Devil their will is do his desires, ie non-elect do not desire God.

We have all sinned in Adam. We are guilty from birth. However being convinced of the truth can change our desires. I'm trying to understand where you get the difference is between men. Paul said;
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Moreover this implies that those who are of God hear his words, which has to be taken pre-conversion. If you are of God pre-conversion then you have to be elected to be God prior to faith.

If only the elect hear do they then always hear? The reason I ask is because when the disciples didn't understand they had to ask Jesus to explain it to them below.
Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Four examples given and each one a private explanation to the disciples because even they didn't understand at first. We all know eleven were saved so why didn't they understand? We have to remember that Christ spoke in parables for a reason, this was the reason;
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
In Matthew Christ says;
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

The hearing problem must have been, because of prophecy as Christ said in verse 14.
I see election in scripture it's there no doubt but, non elect isn't there. I believe that all men are sinners and a slave to sin before Salvation making Satan, everyones father before Salvation.

MB