The "Necessity" of the Virgin Birth

[Aaron]

Sin is passed at conception. (Aaron says it isn't passed, but Romans 5:12 seems pretty clear.)

Again, "death" isn't a "something" that is only passed by the male like the Y chromosome. It's what Adam could NOT impart, and that is life.

Anyway, that's my point. The Virgin Birth was a sign only. Christ's sinlessness was not contingent upon it. God's hand wasn't forced. It was simply God's will and pleasure that Redemption be accomplished in the manner that it was, and it glorifies Him alone.

Once we understand that then we won't slide into erroneous ideas concerning the the "sin nature" and superstitious notions concerning the human body of Christ, as did Morris. Christ took his flesh from Mary. He didn't implant it there.

 

[OldRegular]

Anyway, that's my point. The Virgin Birth was a sign only. Christ's sinlessness was not contingent upon it. God's hand wasn't forced. It was simply God's will and pleasure that Redemption be accomplished in the manner that it was, and it glorifies Him alone.

You are entitled to be wrong and you are!

 

[Aaron]

That's fine.

 

[DHK]

Yes, the other meaning is figurative, that David was conceived in a fallen world (which I believe to be the correct rendering, not the way the NET has stated). If it's literal, as you suggest, then we must also take another Psalm literally, Pslam 58:3 which states we are sinners from birth. Which is it, from conception or birth?

One must establish context. David's psalm was a psalm of repentance. It is a soul-searching confession of his sin and sinful condition before God. "Against thee and thee alone have I sinned. He considers the awful sinfulness of sin. He looks down into the innermost depths of his own sin nature, as the NET translation indicates. There is no "fallen world" in the verse, in the context, anywhere in the psalm to render such an interpretation. The psalm is a psalm of repentance--deeply intimate, between him and God. The world has nothing to do with it.

Your analogy is like saying: Yes Lord, forgive me for being an alcoholic and being drunk, but it is the fault of the society. If the society wasn't so wicked I would't have sinned.
David takes responsibility for his sin. He fully realizes his own sinful condition. The world around him had no part in his sin.

 

[webdog]

One must establish context. David's psalm was a psalm of repentance. It is a soul-searching confession of his sin and sinful condition before God. "Against thee and thee alone have I sinned. He considers the awful sinfulness of sin. He looks down into the innermost depths of his own sin nature, as the NET translation indicates. There is no "fallen world" in the verse, in the context, anywhere in the psalm to render such an interpretation. The psalm is a psalm of repentance--deeply intimate, between him and God. The world has nothing to do with it.

Your analogy is like saying: Yes Lord, forgive me for being an alcoholic and being drunk, but it is the fault of the society. If the society wasn't so wicked I would't have sinned.
David takes responsibility for his sin. He fully realizes his own sinful condition. The world around him had no part in his sin.

What analogy did I give

How do we take responsibility for a sin we didn't commit?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Again, "death" isn't a "something" that is only passed by the male like the Y chromosome. It's what Adam could NOT impart, and that is life.

But you will note that that is not what the text says. Death came because of sin. Sin was passed down and death from it.

Anyway, that's my point. The Virgin Birth was a sign only.

But it wasn't a sign only. That's the point. It was necessary theologically for more than a sign.

 

[DHK]

What analogy did I give

How do we take responsibility for a sin we didn't commit?

The sin nature isn't a sin; it is our nature. We have a nature that gives us a tendency towards sin. I must teach my children to tell the truth; I never had to teach them how to lie. They knew that "as soon as they were born," as the psalmist put it. It was in their nature.

Can the Ethiopian change his skin?
Can the leopard change his spots?
Can you, being accustomed to doing evil, then do good?
--You are accustomed to doing evil because it is in your nature. Your nature can only be changed by being born again, that is, having a new nature.

 

[Jim1999]

No one doubts or denied the virgin birth of Jesus.
No one doubts that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
No one doubts that Jesus was without sin in His human form.

Now back to the question: How did Mary have a child without sin if she was a sinner from birth herself. If her normal egg was used, how did it escape natural sin? Doesn't he woman pass on that natural state of the newborn? The good Dr. postulated an idea that God created the egg which came to fruition in the womb of Mary and hence was born fully man; fully God in the fulness of time.........now take the discussion from there and forget all the things we all know and agree on......this is unknown.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[annsni]

No one doubts or denied the virgin birth of Jesus.
No one doubts that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
No one doubts that Jesus was without sin in His human form.

Now back to the question: How did Mary have a child without sin if she was a sinner from birth herself. If her normal egg was used, how did it escape natural sin? Doesn't he woman pass on that natural state of the newborn? The good Dr. postulated an idea that God created the egg which came to fruition in the womb of Mary and hence was born fully man; fully God in the fulness of time.........now take the discussion from there and forget all the things we all know and agree on......this is unknown.

Cheers,

Jim

Of course God created the egg! He creates all of them!

Isn't God powerful enough to make the babe that resulted from a human egg sinless?

 

[Jim1999]

Then, why did so many pooh pooh Dr.Morris's "novel" idea?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No one doubts or denied the virgin birth of Jesus.
No one doubts that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
No one doubts that Jesus was without sin in His human form.

Now back to the question: How did Mary have a child without sin if she was a sinner from birth herself. If her normal egg was used, how did it escape natural sin? Doesn't he woman pass on that natural state of the newborn? The good Dr. postulated an idea that God created the egg which came to fruition in the womb of Mary and hence was born fully man; fully God in the fulness of time.........now take the discussion from there and forget all the things we all know and agree on......this is unknown.

Cheers,

Jim

Wasn't Mary over shadowed by the Power of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jim1999]

You mean she was immaculate in her conception?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You mean she was immaculate in her conception?

Cheers,

Jim

Actually, I was refering to this verse

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God.

Are you suggesting that she is?

 

[annsni]

Then, why did so many pooh pooh Dr.Morris's "novel" idea?

Cheers,

Jim

Because prophecy denies it.

 

[annsni]

You mean she was immaculate in her conception?

Cheers,

Jim

The "immaculate conception" is a Roman Catholic belief that Mary was born without sin. It has nothing to do with Jesus.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The "immaculate conception" is a Roman Catholic belief that Mary was born without sin. It has nothing to do with Jesus.

Actually, the Catholic Doctrine of the Immaculate Conseption has everything to do with Jesus. Because the thinking went along the lines of some suggestions already made here. Just like Theotokos has less to do with Mary and Everything to do with the Nature of Christ.

 

[annsni]

Actually, the Catholic Doctrine of the Immaculate Conseption has everything to do with Jesus. Because the thinking went along the lines of some suggestions already made here. Just like Theotokos has less to do with Mary and Everything to do with the Nature of Christ.

No - what I meant is that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception does NOT have to do directly with Jesus but Mary's own conception. Yes, it has to do with Jesus in that Mary "needed" to be sinless in order to give birth to the Son of God, but that is not Biblical teaching.

 

[Jim1999]

Then you are saying that Jesus was born in sin through Mary, who was not sinless, but that is not biblical.

We are going in circles here and not getting an answer.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[gb93433]

Incorrect. The Virgin Birth is necessary because of the pre-existence of Christ. At conception, a new person comes into being (traducianism). If Christ was conceived normally, then it would be a completely new person. But Christ being God was eternal. He pre-existed. Therefore, he had to be virgin born.

How does that compare to Luke 2:52, "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

 

[Revmitchell]

How does that compare to Luke 2:52, "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

Are you suggesting he was not pre-existent?