The "Necessity" of the Virgin Birth

[annsni]

Then you are saying that Jesus was born in sin through Mary, who was not sinless, but that is not biblical.

We are going in circles here and not getting an answer.

Cheers,

Jim

How are we saying that Jesus was born in sin? He was not. However, He was born of Mary. From Mary's seed. That's what Scripture tells us.

 

[Pastor Larry]

How does that compare to Luke 2:52, "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

Not sure what you are questioning. Jesus was born as a baby and grew up like people do. That's what Luke 2:52 refers to.

 

[Jim1999]

How is Mary's seed without sin? She must be immaculate!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How is Mary's seed without sin? She must be immaculate!

Cheers,

Jim

Ah, but in order for her to be immaculately concieved must her mother as well have been immaculately concieved all the way to the begining. At some point the taint of sin comes into the picuture.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How is Mary's seed without sin? She must be immaculate!

Cheers,

Jim

Just so it doesn't seem like we're ganging up on you would you also hold the view that Mary's womb is equally on par with the Ark of the Covenant? Since, her womb held Jesus presence?

 

[Jim1999]

No comment on that one. I am hard pressed just trying to get an answer to original question...bad enough the forum was split and I can't keep up with one let alone two threads. Not getting any younger you know.............

Cheers,

Jim

 

[annsni]

How is Mary's seed without sin? She must be immaculate!

Cheers,

Jim

Or God is able.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No comment on that one. I am hard pressed just trying to get an answer to original question...bad enough the forum was split and I can't keep up with one let alone two threads. Not getting any younger you know.............

Cheers,

Jim

How about the previous one? Doesn't there have to be an immaculate line all the way back to the begining?

 

[Jim1999]

Perhaps she was immaculate from her birth, but then we must ask how Jesus was fully man. Whilst he was without sin...I have no question on that one....was he able to sin? He was able to be tempted by the devil. He also grew as a boy into manhood, and every suggestion is that he was a carpenter with his father Joseph...........oh, oh..here comes another one,,Was Joseph His father?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[annsni]

Perhaps she was immaculate from her birth, but then we must ask how Jesus was fully man. Whilst he was without sin...I have no question on that one....was he able to sin? He was able to be tempted by the devil. He also grew as a boy into manhood, and every suggestion is that he was a carpenter with his father Joseph...........oh, oh..here comes another one,,Was Joseph His father?

Cheers,

Jim

Joseph was Jesus' father just as much as my daddy is my father.

 

[Jim1999]

Your mother had an immaculate conception too?

Cheers,

Jim:saint:

 

[OldRegular]

No one doubts or denied the virgin birth of Jesus.
No one doubts that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
No one doubts that Jesus was without sin in His human form.

Now back to the question: How did Mary have a child without sin if she was a sinner from birth herself. If her normal egg was used, how did it escape natural sin? Doesn't he woman pass on that natural state of the newborn? The good Dr. postulated an idea that God created the egg which came to fruition in the womb of Mary and hence was born fully man; fully God in the fulness of time.........now take the discussion from there and forget all the things we all know and agree on......this is unknown.

Cheers,

Jim

Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ was the son of David. The only way He could be the descendant of David was to be born of a descendant of David.

Luke 1:32. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Romans 1:1-3
1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2. (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

It is for this reason alone that Dr. Morris' concept of a special egg created by God is not Scriptural.

It has already been explained in a prior post why the descendant through Jesus Christ came into the world was Mary. That, however, is not the only reason. The descendant of David through which the Incarnation took place had to be a woman. The reason for this is that the sin nature is inherited through the male, therefore, a human male could not be involved in the birth of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Corinthians 15: 22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[Jim1999]

My wife will be glad to know that she is sinless.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[DHK]

How is Mary's seed without sin? She must be immaculate!

Cheers,

Jim

Mary was simply a vessel. If we use your logic, then it is never ending. If Mary was immaculate, then so did her mother have to be, and thus her grandmother, and her great grandmother, and her great great grandmother? Where does the "immaculate" concept stop? If Mary? Then why not right up the entire genealogical trail?

 

[Jim1999]

The descendant of David through which the Incarnation took place had to be a woman. The reason for this is that the sin nature is inherited through the male, therefore, a human male could not be involved in the birth of Jesus Christ.
======================

Do you agree that Matthew is the genealogy including Joseph,,,,,,

It opens: "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.....
16. "and jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called the Christ.

It would appear the lineage is there with Joseph.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[OldRegular]

My wife will be glad to know that she is sinless.

Cheers,

Jim

So your wife did not have a father?

 

[OldRegular]

The descendant of David through which the Incarnation took place had to be a woman. The reason for this is that the sin nature is inherited through the male, therefore, a human male could not be involved in the birth of Jesus Christ.
======================

Do you agree that Matthew is the genealogy including Joseph,,,,,,

It opens: "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.....
16. "and jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called the Christ.

It would appear the lineage is there with Joseph.

Cheers,

Jim

Joseph was not the father. Someone explained earlier the two lineages recorded in the Gospels.

Matthew 1:18-25
18. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23. Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25. And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

 

[Marcia]

No one doubts or denied the virgin birth of Jesus.
No one doubts that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
No one doubts that Jesus was without sin in His human form.

Now back to the question: How did Mary have a child without sin if she was a sinner from birth herself. If her normal egg was used, how did it escape natural sin? Doesn't he woman pass on that natural state of the newborn? The good Dr. postulated an idea that God created the egg which came to fruition in the womb of Mary and hence was born fully man; fully God in the fulness of time.........now take the discussion from there and forget all the things we all know and agree on......this is unknown.

Cheers,

Jim

I'm still just on page 6 of reading through the 8 pages of this thread (!) but I just posted on this on another thread here. I think Heb. 2 shows us that Jesus had to be Mary's son literally, and he had to be the descendant of David.

14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Adam and Eve had no sin nature because they did not "know good and evil" until they sinned. Once they did - that is, they experienced (knew) evil by disobeying God - they had the sin nature; i.e., the tendency to sin. All humans since are born with this.

On the other thread I said this is a mystery of the incarnation - that Jesus could be born of a sinful woman but have no sin nature. Well, here is a theory: Jesus could be born of a sinful woman becaues he was not afflicted with "knowing good and evil" since He is God. He knows what evil is, of course, but he does not "know" it the way man does by experiencing it - that is, by doing it and/or having the tendency/desire to do evil.

 

[gb93433]

Not sure what you are questioning. Jesus was born as a baby and grew up like people do. That's what Luke 2:52 refers to.

When Jesus was born he was human in a real sense as a baby would. He grew . . .

 

[gb93433]

Are you suggesting he was not pre-existent?

Jn 1:1 answers that.