The "Necessity" of the Virgin Birth

[PeterM]

It won't be too long before someone whips out "hypostatic union" and impresses us all!

Seriously, the issue of how original sin is passed on remains in question for some which can and has led some to deny the sinlessness of Jesus. Jesus had to be born of a virgin, seperate from human conception to be born free of a sin nature. I don't think anyone here is denying that God could have done it differently, He elected to do it this way to prove His supremacy and glorify Himself. It is important to remember that God created nature... only to then operate in the super-natural to reveal His Lordship over it.

Sin is obviously not passed on through the woman (Mary) alone, but through the process of human conception. Every child conceived is born into judgement and condemnation. Because the HS caused the conception we are discussing here, the issue of original sin is immaterial. Jesus not only lived a perfect life, but He was conceived and born free from the burden of a sin nature. The virgin birth is essential to our doctrine and baptists and as believers. To deny it, or its value is to question the authority of the scriptures and the ultimately the atonement we share.

 

[patrick]

The virgin birth was one of the signs. That made it a have to happen kid of the thing. Jesus said He was the Truth. God thought it was pretty important. However, I kind of cringe when some people try to put God in a box. I think uf God had really wanted to do it a different, HE could have. After all HE is GOD!!!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It won't be too long before someone whips out "hypostatic union" and impresses us all!

Seriously, the issue of how original sin is passed on remains in question for some which can and has led some to deny the sinlessness of Jesus. Jesus had to be born of a virgin, seperate from human conception to be born free of a sin nature. I don't think anyone here is denying that God could have done it differently, He elected to do it this way to prove His supremacy and glorify Himself. It is important to remember that God created nature... only to then operate in the super-natural to reveal His Lordship over it.

Sin is obviously not passed on through the woman (Mary) alone, but through the process of human conception. Every child conceived is born into judgement and condemnation. Because the HS caused the conception we are discussing here, the issue of original sin is immaterial. Jesus not only lived a perfect life, but He was conceived and born free from the burden of a sin nature. The virgin birth is essential to our doctrine and baptists and as believers. To deny it, or its value is to question the authority of the scriptures and the ultimately the atonement we share.

That is the Augustine argument.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Mary was simply a vessel. If we use your logic, then it is never ending. If Mary was immaculate, then so did her mother have to be, and thus her grandmother, and her great grandmother, and her great great grandmother? Where does the "immaculate" concept stop? If Mary? Then why not right up the entire genealogical trail?

Mary unlike those before her did not question God but obeyed from the outset. Unusual considering the tanakhs rendering of persons of faith.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It won't be too long before someone whips out "hypostatic union" and impresses us all!

Seriously, the issue of how original sin is passed on remains in question for some which can and has led some to deny the sinlessness of Jesus. Jesus had to be born of a virgin, seperate from human conception to be born free of a sin nature. I don't think anyone here is denying that God could have done it differently, He elected to do it this way to prove His supremacy and glorify Himself. It is important to remember that God created nature... only to then operate in the super-natural to reveal His Lordship over it.

Sin is obviously not passed on through the woman (Mary) alone, but through the process of human conception. Every child conceived is born into judgement and condemnation. Because the HS caused the conception we are discussing here, the issue of original sin is immaterial. Jesus not only lived a perfect life, but He was conceived and born free from the burden of a sin nature. The virgin birth is essential to our doctrine and baptists and as believers. To deny it, or its value is to question the authority of the scriptures and the ultimately the atonement we share.

I would also say that that is how God always had done it. So its irrelevant that he could do it another way because its an intrinsic impossibility.

 

[Revmitchell]

The Bible says Mary was overcome with the Holy Ghost. Good enough for me.

The Bible says Jesus was from the seed of Abraham. Good enough for me.

The Bible says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Good enough for me.

The Bible says to them who believed gave He the power to become the sons of God. Good enough for me.

The mechanical means by which God accomplishes those things is not spoken of in scripture. All the speculation in the world from all the know it all's has never promoted the gospel one inch farther. And in fact does more to create unnecessary division than any amount of politics. We can all agree on the above statements. Trying to figure out what is not specifically spoken of beyond what scripture says causes us to part company. Is it really scriptural to take it any farther than what scripture directly speaks to?

 

[DHK]

Mary unlike those before her did not question God but obeyed from the outset. Unusual considering the tanakhs rendering of persons of faith.

It is not a matter of questioning God. You were not there. How do you know others before her did not question God? Perhaps they were not asked; were not given the opportunity. In fact we know that to be the situation. God chose Mary. He didn't go to the market of virgins and run a computer test to see which would fail and which would pass. Out of his sovereign will he chose Mary.

The logic involved in the "immaculate conception" is absurd, or at least not thought out consistently.
If Mary had to be born without sin, then so did her mother, grandmother, great grandmother, etc., all the way back to Eve. In order for Mary to be immaculate, that is without sin, that state would have to be passed on throughout all generations. The question remains: Why just Mary? Thus Mary having to be immaculately conceived is really a red herring. It is Christ that was virgin born, without sin, because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Therein lies the difference. The sin nature comes through the seed of the man, not the woman. Christ avoided the sin nature by being conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin--unlike any other in the human race.

 

[gb93433]

If an immaculate conception were true, then wouldn't it make sense to suggest that Jesus would have been born through parthenogenesis?

 

[OldRegular]

It is not a matter of questioning God. You were not there. How do you know others before her did not question God? Perhaps they were not asked; were not given the opportunity. In fact we know that to be the situation. God chose Mary. He didn't go to the market of virgins and run a computer test to see which would fail and which would pass. Out of his sovereign will he chose Mary.

The logic involved in the "immaculate conception" is absurd, or at least not thought out consistently.
If Mary had to be born without sin, then so did her mother, grandmother, great grandmother, etc., all the way back to Eve. In order for Mary to be immaculate, that is without sin, that state would have to be passed on throughout all generations. The question remains: Why just Mary? Thus Mary having to be immaculately conceived is really a red herring. It is Christ that was virgin born, without sin, because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Therein lies the difference. The sin nature comes through the seed of the man, not the woman. Christ avoided the sin nature by being conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin--unlike any other in the human race.

I agree with what you say. However, I would also add that the egg that was used in conception came from the Virgin Mary. It is also important to understand that just as Mary was not immaculately conceived she did not remain a virgin.

 

[DHK]

I agree with what you say. However, I would also add that the egg that was used in conception came from the Virgin Mary. It is also important to understand that just as Mary was not immaculately conceived she did not remain a virgin.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

I agree.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is not a matter of questioning God. You were not there. How do you know others before her did not question God? Perhaps they were not asked; were not given the opportunity. In fact we know that to be the situation. God chose Mary. He didn't go to the market of virgins and run a computer test to see which would fail and which would pass. Out of his sovereign will he chose Mary.

The logic involved in the "immaculate conception" is absurd, or at least not thought out consistently.
If Mary had to be born without sin, then so did her mother, grandmother, great grandmother, etc., all the way back to Eve. In order for Mary to be immaculate, that is without sin, that state would have to be passed on throughout all generations. The question remains: Why just Mary? Thus Mary having to be immaculately conceived is really a red herring. It is Christ that was virgin born, without sin, because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Therein lies the difference. The sin nature comes through the seed of the man, not the woman. Christ avoided the sin nature by being conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin--unlike any other in the human race.

You weren't there either. So the objection is irrelevant. I'm talking about what is recorded. You're just trying to point out your position. I've already brought up the point about an "immaculate lineage".