The Nephilim

[JonC]

Because I said to you....."you who remain willfully ignorant"

Oh, whoops, that was your comment to me. Guess that is your way of NOT being insulting!

I meant it as a statement of fact, not an insult. You do not want to consider any other interpretation because you believe God has granted you His understanding. This is willful ignorance (at best). But I do apologize as it seems I've hurt your feelings. Here's a smiley, if it helps heal the pain -

 

[Reynolds]

Just want to iterate. WE, as humans with a BRAIN can use our limited knowledge (because we do not know all things) and come to "possible" conclusions. Why THREE? Because we do not know all things. How can THREE things be possible?
Because there is no definitive ONE thing known, so it's guessing (because we do not know all things).

SO the dilemma ~ HOW TO ARRIVE at the ONE TRUE answer of the UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE?
Logic? no
Guessing ? no
Philosopher said? no
Pastor said? no
Brain transplant? no

THEE ONLY way to arrive at the ONE TRUE understanding, is for man to RECEIVE from God, "HIS Understanding".

How do we do that? WE ASK GOD, and that is where PRAYER comes in being the means of HOW we communicate with God.

AND? "WHO is "we" ? Everybody? No. Faithfully committed believers, (ie saved and born again) yes.
EVERY saved and born again believer? No.

Why not?
Because first ONLY Gods give His understanding to individuals.
Secondly, NOT everyone is prepared or mature to receive His understanding on a particular subject.

What is prepared? A faithful submitted believer....Reading the scripture, studying it, showing diligence, ie your genuine interest.
What is mature? Being of an age, you can not only ask for His understanding, but also be responsible for His understanding.

So, once you are prepared, and mature.....HOW do you get God understanding? ASK.

And WHO is it that gives it to you? God. How do you KNOW that? Scripture teaches you that.

Matt.7

1. [7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
2. [8] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
3. [9] Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
4. [10] Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
5. [11] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matt 16

[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (has revealed to Simon Barjona, Gods understanding)

I don't know what you or anyone else has done. However I do know what I have done, in reading, studying, the topic at hand, and WHO I have asked for understanding , and whom I trust His teaching and revealing and thus serve God according to how He has revealed for me to do.

I have only seen three that I consider possible. One day I might increase or decrease my list.

 

[Happy]

To be blunt, your claim that God has endowed you with divine understanding....His own understanding....because you prayed for it and therefore can determine what is not actually present in Scripture nor revealed by God (the point of the passage was not angels bearing children but God's judgment on mankind) would be laughable if it were not a sad example of the biblical illiteracy that has inflicted our churches.

I claim to trust what Scripture reveals.

I claim to trust what Scripture teaches.

I claim to TRUST what God says is true.

I claim to have a relationship with the Lord, and that He is my teacher.

[edited: insults removed]

 

[JonC]

I claim to trust what Scripture reveals.

I claim to trust what Scripture teaches.

I claim to TRUST what God says is true.

I claim to have a relationship with the Lord, and that He is my teacher.

And further, I claim it does not matter to me one iota, your opinions.

That was not my opinion. Genesis 6 simply does not teach that angels fathered children. You mentioned that Scripture does not call men "sons of God" before Gen. 6. What you failed to identify is that Gen 6 is the first usage of the term and it falls within the discussion of man (not angels). In fact, direct angelic intervention in the affairs of man (beyond Satan's temptation) is foreign to Genesis 1-5. One has to wonder how, since Genesis 6 leaves "sons of God" unidentified, you choose angels to fill the blank. I am simply saying it is possible that these "sons of God" have already been identified in Ch. 5 as those who called upon the Lord and the Nephilim may be identified in 6:4 as the mighty men of old, men of renown.

I also have a relationship with God. And I can also say that God, through His Spirit, led me to my conclusion (that what has not been definitely revealed in Scripture is not going to be revealed to me or anyone else via special revelation as it is not the point of the revelation). The difference in our interpretations, however, is that my view is directly from Scripture where as yours introduces "angels" for the first and only time into a passage that does not deal with angels.

What you want us to accept is that Genesis 6:4 introduces significant angelic interaction that up to that point has been absent from Scripture, and it does so by vague implication, and then drops the topic before the verse is even over. And I could even deal with that except that you claim we are to accept this introduction into the text because God has given to you His understanding. Scripture, not individual divine revelation, is the authority by which we test doctrine and I'm sorry brother, but when we "test the spirit" on this one your words fail - again, not because your conclusions (this is up to discussion) but because of the authority by which you support your opinions.

 

[rlvaughn]

...view is directly from Scripture...introduces "angels" for the first and only time into a passage that does not deal with angels.

I wonder how much the apocryphal book of Enoch has effected Christian thinking, past and present, on this passage?

Enoch 6: 1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.'
The Book of Enoch: The Book of Enoch: Chapter VI.

 

[Happy]

I meant it as a statement of fact, not an insult. You do not want to consider any other interpretation because you believe God has granted you His understanding. This is willful ignorance (at best). But I do apologize as it seems I've hurt your feelings. Here's a smiley, if it helps heal the pain -

you believe God has granted you His understanding.

Correct!

This is willful ignorance (at best)

.

Because you say so?

[edited - insults removed]

Rom 1
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

2Tim.2

1. 
   
   
   • [7] Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

 

[Happy]

But I do apologize as it seems I've hurt your feelings. Here's a smiley, if it helps heal the pain -

No apology necessary or accepted.

You haven't the power to hurt me in any way, shape or form.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

I wonder how much the apocryphal book of Enoch has effected Christian thinking, past and present, on this passage?

i briefly mentioned this in an earlier post--but considering Jude describes 'chained angels' in v 6--then quotes 1 Enoch just a few sentences later [v 14-15]---certainly favors some kind of reference to the 'angelic interpretation of Gen 6' in his letter. But the 1 Enoch [3rd century BC] reference you gave certainly shows the early date for the angelic idea--especially considering the 'Sethite theory' did not exist until the 3rd century AD, with Julius Africanus’ proposal. With all the evidence for the angelic interpretation of Gen 6--I'm not sure how some in this thread can give a 'drive by post' against it; not deal with all the complexities of the passage itself-- & then think they have somehow disproven a very biblical valid understanding of the text.

 

[Happy]

i briefly mentioned this in an earlier post--but considering Jude describes 'chained angels' in v 6--then quotes 1 Enoch just a few sentences later [v 14-15]---certainly favors some kind of reference to the 'angelic interpretation of Gen 6' in his letter. But the 1 Enoch [3rd century BC] reference you gave certainly shows the early date for the angelic idea--especially considering the 'Sethite theory' did not exist until the 3rd century AD, with Julius Africanus’ proposal. With all the evidence for the angelic interpretation of Gen 6--I'm not sure how some in this thread can give a 'drive by post' against it; not deal with all the complexities of the passage itself-- & then think they have somehow disproven a very biblical valid understanding of the text.

Agree.

Information "introduced", is simply knowledge.
As with in all things; the understanding of the knowledge comes later.
It is a fool, who opens a book. Reads the introduction page, and thinks he has gained the knowledge and understanding whole of the book.

It is a fool, who thinks the first to the last page of the Bible is all there is to know or understand.

Information / knowledge has been introduced To mankind, Since mankind was created.
Throughout history, men have wondered, challenged, believed, not believed, philosophized, tried to logically conclude....
WHAT the understanding of the knowledge revealed MEANS.

It is what men through-out history, were concluding, with their minds thoughts, that reveals what men through-out history have thought and believed.

Scripture is clear. Some knowledge was given in the beginning, and increased over time. And for the most part the UNDERSTANDING thereof, was kept....Secret...Covered....Not given.....TO...but a few whom God had chosen, for Him to GIVE His understanding.

Scripture is clear. The KNOWLEDGE, was commanded to be written, kept, protected, preached in the ears of the people, of those who had been given the knowledge. (those now fondly called, Fathers and Saints).

Scripture is clear. Since Christ the Lord Jesus' arrival on earth; The KNOWLEDGE, it was commanded, to be sent out into all the world. AND - the BIG NEWS is..... the UNDERSTANDING of the knowledge.....HAS BEEN uncovered, revealed, open, readily available FOR ALL ...... WHO? ........ ALL WHO TRUST and BELIEVE in the LORD ..... AND SEEK ....
the knowledge thereof, the understanding thereof, the wisdom thereof.

Scripture is clear. NOT everything IS written in ink on paper. Even all Jesus taught His Disciples was NOT written.

Scripture is clear.
Jesus IS the Life. Jesus IS the Word. Jesus IS the Truth. Christ IS the Spirit. Christ IS the Wisdom. Christ IS the Power.
Jesus Christ IS the Lord of Lords!

Scripture is clear. Christ Jesus the Lord, is the TEACHER and GIVER.
He is the GIVER of Life, of the Word, of Truth, of Spirit, of Knowledge, of Wisdom, of Understanding.

Scripture is clear. ^ THAT continues, FOR ANYONE "who" TRUSTS to BELIEVE, submits in faithfulness, AND SEEKS what He desires a man to have.

 

[Happy]

i briefly mentioned this in an earlier post--but considering Jude describes 'chained angels' in v 6--then quotes 1 Enoch just a few sentences later [v 14-15]---certainly favors some kind of reference to the 'angelic interpretation of Gen 6' in his letter. But the 1 Enoch [3rd century BC] reference you gave certainly shows the early date for the angelic idea--especially considering the 'Sethite theory' did not exist until the 3rd century AD, with Julius Africanus’ proposal. With all the evidence for the angelic interpretation of Gen 6--I'm not sure how some in this thread can give a 'drive by post' against it; not deal with all the complexities of the passage itself-- & then think they have somehow disproven a very biblical valid understanding of the text.

sons of God.....witnessing, and shouting for joy........while the world was being created.

Funny thing.....a man who, believes, "sons of God", only applies to mankind, would mean; it was mankind that was created, before the world, and observed God creating the world. LOL

Job 38

[4] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[Happy]

If one does not KNOW, HOW or WHY or WHO or WHEN, one is called, a "son of God".....
they are ignorant of the understanding, and NOT prepared or qualified to teach on the subject.

Be aware; there is a reason God gave man TWO ears and only ONE mouth!

 

[Revmitchell]

Be aware; there is a reason God gave man TWO ears and only ONE mouth!

There is, it is logically necessary to have a place on both sides of the body to take in information and only one side is needed to communicate effectively. Other than that your idea makes a nice bumper sticker but has no value or evidence.

 

[Happy]

There is, it is logically necessary to have a place on both sides of the body to take in information and only one side is needed to communicate effectively. Other than that your idea makes a nice bumper sticker but has no value or evidence.

Logic? Logic is the result of weighing between options, based on the information you have and trust.

Logic? That is well suited for a CARNAL mind.

However Scripture teaches Jesus IS the TRUTH.

TRUTH requires no logic, or weighing. You simply BELIEVE IT, or YOU don't.

Truth? That is well suited for a PURE heart.

[Edited: Insults Removed]

 

[Revmitchell]

TRUTH requires no logic, or weighing. You simply BELIEVE IT, or YOU don't.

No argument made by anyone on this board in all the years I have been here has better made my own argument than this one. I am sitting here laughing. This has got to be one of the most ignorant statements made on this board.

 

[Yeshua1]

We have gone this route before. You speak in carnal understanding, and something that I am way beyond.

Denying the humanity of Jesus is NOT way behind me, its being in heresy!

 

[Happy]

I wonder how much the apocryphal book of Enoch has effected Christian thinking, past and present, on this passage?

Seems that would be dependent upon who has read the book of Enoch.

Have you read it?
Did it influence you?

I can't speak to that, since I have not read it.

 

[Deacon]

That is your opinion. Not mine, not Scriptures.

It is not a secret;
Humans are men of the earth, created from dust, and return to dust.

It is not a secret;
Jesus is the Lord from Heaven, not created, came to earth, and returned to Heaven.

It is not a secret;
Mankind is not privy to SEE the Lord, AS HE IS.

It is not a secret;
Jesus took upon Himself the likeness as a man, SO men could SEE Him.

IF you are unaware of such TRUTHS, and can NOT find them in Scripture, ask what you search for and can not find.

It is ALSO not a secret, many men, such as yourself included, ONLY know Jesus IN THE FLESH, and never wonder or seek to discover,
WHO Jesus IS, BENEATH that BODY that was prepared for Him, for when He came into this world.
OR WHERE Jesus WAS, before He came into this world.
OR WHAT Jesus WAS doing, before He came into this world.

Really? Is your Lord and Savior.... a created Human being, because He was called a man?

Exod.15

1. [3] The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Astounding.

If our Savior were not human we are all lost.

This is how you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God
But every spirit that does not confess is not from God.
This is the spirit of the antichrist; you have heard that he is coming, and he is already in the world now.
1 John 4:2-3
​

Rob

 

[Yeshua1]

And here is all Scripture provides about the Nephilim:

Genesis 6:3-4 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Numbers 13:33 "There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."

The remainder of your dogma, all that stuff you've added about angels bearing children and God having to cleans mankind from these men (who may not be human or angel...but are men) is nothing but systematic theology....angelology.... done poorly. It is eisegesis at it's lowest.

What is amazing is that you seem to believe that God has given you, via divine special revelation, His own understanding about the topic.

This pales in comparison to whether or not the "sons of God" were angels (we could have a legitimate conversation over that, although we wouldn't agree) but the fact that your plea is not to Scripture but to some personal revelation.

He seems to hold to having special revelation right from God, as he denies the trinity, and denies that Jesus was even human!

 

[rlvaughn]

Seems that would be dependent upon who has read the book of Enoch.
Have you read it?
Did it influence you?

No, I have not read it, except bits and pieces regarding this subject in Genesis 6. It did not influence me, except to influence me to think a lot of what is called the Book of Enoch is pretty wacky. I would say, though, that a person who has not read it could be influenced indirectly through those who have. It is not unusual to see the Book of Enoch referenced by those writing about Jude's letter and Genesis 6.

...Jude describes 'chained angels' in v 6--then quotes 1 Enoch just a few sentences later [v 14-15]---certainly favors some kind of reference to the 'angelic interpretation of Gen 6' in his letter. But the 1 Enoch [3rd century BC] reference you gave certainly shows the early date for the angelic idea...

The Book of Enoch demonstrates that the angels' view existed by that time or was created by its author. Other sources, maybe only slightly later, refer to it as well -- for example, the Targum Jonathan and the Genesis Apocryphon.

On the other hand, there are other pre-New Testament era records that refer to these as men rather than angels, using terms such as sons of the mighty, sons of the rulers and sons of Judges -- e.g. Targum Onkelos and Targum Neofiti. [There is supposed to be a translation of Targum Neofiti HERE. Either Genesis 6 hasn't been added or I don't know how to navigate the site.] These expressions probably better support what might be called the Despotic or Divine Rulers view rather than the Sethite view.

None of this proves much, other than historically at least two views of Genesis Chapter Six pre-dated New Testament times.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is your opinion. Not mine, not Scriptures.

It is not a secret;
Humans are men of the earth, created from dust, and return to dust.

It is not a secret;
Jesus is the Lord from Heaven, not created, came to earth, and returned to Heaven.

It is not a secret;
Mankind is not privy to SEE the Lord, AS HE IS.

It is not a secret;
Jesus took upon Himself the likeness as a man, SO men could SEE Him.

IF you are unaware of such TRUTHS, and can NOT find them in Scripture, ask what you search for and can not find.

It is ALSO not a secret, many men, such as yourself included, ONLY know Jesus IN THE FLESH, and never wonder or seek to discover,
WHO Jesus IS, BENEATH that BODY that was prepared for Him, for when He came into this world.
OR WHERE Jesus WAS, before He came into this world.
OR WHAT Jesus WAS doing, before He came into this world.

Really? Is your Lord and Savior.... a created Human being, because He was called a man?

Exod.15

1. [3] The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Astounding.

Bible calls Him God and Man, the man Christ Jesus, you deny that, deny his humanity, that would be a heresy!