***Mark Osgatharp said: Now you have resorted to putting words in Jesus mouth which He never said. What Jesus did say, when Nicodemas asked him "how can these things be" is, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life."
The context of that verse is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, a teacher of the Law, a Jew of Jews who would curse the thought of God loving and saving Gentiles. God didn't sooooooo love the world, so to speak. He loved the world (Jews and Gentiles), in this way, that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever among the Jews and Gentiles is believing will not perish, but have everlasting life. The question here is, "Who will be believing?" Obviously it's the ones who are born from above, of water (human/flesh) and the Spirit (of God).
***Mark Osgatharp said: And John himself said, "as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God."
John then said, "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." They who received Him did so because they were born NOT of the will of man, because of some belief they mustered up, but of God!
***Mark Osgatharp said: These, and many other passages, put reception of Christ before the impartation of life. For example, John the Baptist said, "He that believeth not the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." Here is an explicit refutation of the idea that a man has life before he has faith.
No it isn't. I believe and have eternal life, but that is not the same thing as the new birth. The new birth is something that happened at a point in time. Eternal life is something that I now have as a result. You're either confusing your terms or have a skewed definition of what being born from above is. He who believes not the Son will not see life. They haven't believed because they are dead in their trespasses and sins and have not been made alive/born from above/been given the new birth. Thus, the wrath of God does abide on that person.
***Mark Osgatharp said: So now answer my question, please: James said "of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" - was it the word of truth believed or unbelieved whereby we were begotten of God?
James says that "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation of shifting shadow." As to your question, belief/faith comes from hearing the Word. The Spirit of God meets the word and produces life, and the new creature has faith as a result. Of His own will He has made some alive, giving them the spiritual eyes and ears and heart to see, hear, and understand the word the truth and respond in faith. 1 Corinthians 2:14 makes it abundantly clear that the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. Something has to happen to change that. That natural man has to be made alive by God to even comprehend that word of truth.
By misunderstanding the new birth you take salvation out of God's hands and put it into your own. God didn't make you alive of His own will. You, in essence, forced Him to when you believed of your own volition.
And no one has really dealt with one of the original verses brought up in this thread. 1 John 5:1 - Whoever is believing (present tense) that Jesus is the Christ has been (past tense) born of God.
[ October 27, 2004, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: mprivett ]
The context of that verse is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, a teacher of the Law, a Jew of Jews who would curse the thought of God loving and saving Gentiles. God didn't sooooooo love the world, so to speak. He loved the world (Jews and Gentiles), in this way, that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever among the Jews and Gentiles is believing will not perish, but have everlasting life. The question here is, "Who will be believing?" Obviously it's the ones who are born from above, of water (human/flesh) and the Spirit (of God).
***Mark Osgatharp said: And John himself said, "as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God."
John then said, "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." They who received Him did so because they were born NOT of the will of man, because of some belief they mustered up, but of God!
***Mark Osgatharp said: These, and many other passages, put reception of Christ before the impartation of life. For example, John the Baptist said, "He that believeth not the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." Here is an explicit refutation of the idea that a man has life before he has faith.
No it isn't. I believe and have eternal life, but that is not the same thing as the new birth. The new birth is something that happened at a point in time. Eternal life is something that I now have as a result. You're either confusing your terms or have a skewed definition of what being born from above is. He who believes not the Son will not see life. They haven't believed because they are dead in their trespasses and sins and have not been made alive/born from above/been given the new birth. Thus, the wrath of God does abide on that person.
***Mark Osgatharp said: So now answer my question, please: James said "of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" - was it the word of truth believed or unbelieved whereby we were begotten of God?
James says that "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation of shifting shadow." As to your question, belief/faith comes from hearing the Word. The Spirit of God meets the word and produces life, and the new creature has faith as a result. Of His own will He has made some alive, giving them the spiritual eyes and ears and heart to see, hear, and understand the word the truth and respond in faith. 1 Corinthians 2:14 makes it abundantly clear that the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. Something has to happen to change that. That natural man has to be made alive by God to even comprehend that word of truth.
By misunderstanding the new birth you take salvation out of God's hands and put it into your own. God didn't make you alive of His own will. You, in essence, forced Him to when you believed of your own volition.
And no one has really dealt with one of the original verses brought up in this thread. 1 John 5:1 - Whoever is believing (present tense) that Jesus is the Christ has been (past tense) born of God.
[ October 27, 2004, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: mprivett ]
