The New Birth

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OR: It is apparently you who do not understand the nature of Salvation. Salvation is only by the Grace of God and is a once for all time event in the life of the elect. That is God keeps eternally secure those He chose to salvation before the foundation of the world and made accepted in the beloved, Jesus Christ [Ephesians 1:3-6].

HP: I understand that your view supports double predestination, for Salvation is of grace and grace alone and has nothing to do with man or his will. God simply grants grace to some and withholds it from others. I can think of no greater evil than for God to create man in such a state as to have no other hope than to be a sinner such as he is created as, and then punish such a one for eternity for failing to do that which even God Himself cannot do, i.e. escape necessitated fate. What a horrible blight to place upon the Holy character of our Just God.

Understanding how you feel, I will wear the label of ‘failing to understand the nature of salvation’ coming from you as a badge of honor. 2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[OldRegular]

HP: I understand that your view supports double predestination, for Salvation is of grace and grace alone and has nothing to do with man or his will. God simply grants grace to some and withholds it from others. I can think of no greater evil than for God to create man in such a state as to have no other hope than to be a sinner such as he is created as, and then punish such a one for eternity for failing to do that which even God Himself cannot do, i.e. escape necessitated fate. What a horrible blight to place upon the Holy character of our Just God.

Understanding how you feel, I will wear the label of ‘failing to understand the nature of salvation’ coming from you as a badge of honor. 2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

My view does not support double predestination. It simply recognizing that all men are under condemnation and deserving of eternal separation from God because they are sinners, by nature and choice. The Apostle Paul presents the sad state of mankind in Romans 1.

John Dagg in his Manual of Theology, page 322, notes:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

God in His grace does intervene and, just as taught in Ephesians 1:3-6, chose before the foundation of the world certain out of the mass of humanity to salvation in Jesus Christ. The rest God left in their fallen state. Without election no one would be saved. Even those who reject the truth of election are saved only because they are among those chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

I realize that the truth of election is a blow to the ego of those who like to think that God did His thing now they will take the giant step and accept his offer of salvation out of the goodness of their heart.

Contrary to your assertion that election is the mark of an evil God it magnifies the Grace of God. And frankly I would be careful about using the term evil God when referring to the God of Scripture; but you do as you please.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OT: My view does not support double predestination. It simply recognizing that all men are under condemnation and deserving of eternal separation from God because they are sinners, by nature and choice. The Apostle Paul presents the sad state of mankind in Romans 1.

God in His grace does intervene and, just as taught in Ephesians 1:3-6, chose before the foundation of the world certain out of the mass of humanity to salvation in Jesus Christ. The rest God left in their fallen state.

HP: If you cannot see that such a view as you espouse is nothing short of double predestination, yea the very notions that necessitate it as true, I have little hope of getting anything else across. I do not desire to be unkind or cut you short, but you need to face the reality of your beliefs. Double predestination is the only end of your belief, that God left the rest in their fallen estate, a state in which necessity mandates and that without exception. Even Calvin at least had the fairness to state clearly that the notions he imbibed necessitatted double predestination. You would do well to come the reality of the truth of your own position.

 

[OldRegular]

HP: If you cannot see that such a view as you espouse is nothing short of double predestination, yea the very notions that necessitate it as true, I have little hope of getting anything else across. I do not desire to be unkind or cut you short, but you need to face the reality of your beliefs. Double predestination is the only end of your belief, that God left the rest in their fallen estate, a state in which necessity mandates and that without exception. Even Calvin at least had the fairness to state clearly that the notions he imbibed necessitatted double predestination. You would do well to come the reality of the truth of your own position.

You would do well to quit playing marbles and understand that Salvation from start to finish is the work of God, not of man, which is the belief of most pagan religions.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OR: ….which is the belief of most pagan religions.

HP: You lay the blueprint of double predestination then deny that is what you believe. That is your privilege, but don’t be shocked when others set forth the inconsistency in your position. If salvation is all of God and involves no others, then the converse is true as well. Those that God purposefully chose not to redeem are damned of necessity, having no possibility of redemption for they simply were not chosen to be redeemed. That OR, is double predestination, a notion you have clearly imbibed.

Speaking of pagan religions and concepts, let me leave you with one. It is the heathen concept that Augustine believed in as a pagan that he brought with him into the Church, i.e., sin lies in the constitution of man and not in the will itself. That my friend is indeed a heathen notion.

 

[OldRegular]

HP: You lay the blueprint of double predestination then deny that is what you believe. That is your privilege, but don’t be shocked when others set forth the inconsistency in your position. If salvation is all of God and involves no others, then the converse is true as well. Those that God purposefully chose not to redeem are damned of necessity, having no possibility of redemption for they simply were not chosen to be redeemed. That OR, is double predestination, a notion you have clearly imbibed.

Take a lesson from the Apostle Paul:

Romans 9:12-24
12. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

It appears that you are accusing God of being unrighteous, though I suppose that is the same as your use of the word evil in reference to God in an earlier post.

Speaking of pagan religions and concepts, let me leave you with one. It is the heathen concept that Augustine believed in as a pagan that he brought with him into the Church, i.e., sin lies in the constitution of man and not in the will itself. That my friend is indeed a heathen notion.

I am not sure what the difference is between the constitution and will of man but it really doesn't make any difference. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, not Augustine!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OR: It appears that you are accusing God of being unrighteous, though I suppose that is the same as your use of the word evil in reference to God in an earlier post.

HP: Sad to say but true, the double predestination you espouse is an evil blight upon the character of a Just and Holy God. You read me right, it is indeed an evil blight.

 

[DHK]

Speaking of pagan religions and concepts, let me leave you with one. It is the heathen concept that Augustine believed in as a pagan that he brought with him into the Church, i.e., sin lies in the constitution of man and not in the will itself. That my friend is indeed a heathen notion.

The "heathen" notion, once a part of New England Theology, and popularized by Charles Finney (both well after Augustine), is that sin lies in the will of man as opposed to man's constitution (i.e. sin nature). Finney was a heretic. He denied the sin nature of man, as do you. In such a denial you come to the conclusion, according to the Word that the truth is not in you, and Christ is a liar.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

What other conclusion can one come to?

 

[OldRegular]

Original Post by Old Regular
It appears that you are accusing God of being unrighteous, though I suppose that is the same as your use of the word evil in reference to God in an earlier post.

Original Post by HP
Sad to say but true, the double predestination you espouse is an evil blight upon the character of a Just and Holy God. You read me right, it is indeed an evil blight.

You put it there! You will have to bear the guilt! You have used the words evil and unrighteous in reference to God, not me.

 

[JSM17]

John Dagg in his Manual of Theology, page 322, notes:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

God in His grace does intervene and, just as taught in Ephesians 1:3-6, chose before the foundation of the world certain out of the mass of humanity to salvation in Jesus Christ. The rest God left in their fallen state. Without election no one would be saved. Even those who reject the truth of election are saved only because they are among those chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
NKJV

The rest God left in their fallen state.

I do not see this in the verses above.

How can a God who wrote this:"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time..." be the God who you say He leaves in their fallen state. 1 Tim. 2:3-6

This does not equate, God does not leave some for hell because He does not want them. I agree that many will not take heed to the word's of God, yet when Paul says that " 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered."

Does God restrict man from wanting to find Him or seek Him?

Acts 17:26-27; 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;NKJV

Sounds like God has set every man in the position to be able to seek after Him. But according to many, they say that man cannot seek after Him unless God makes you. Yet the passage does not say that and it certainly doed not say that God just leave vertain men in their fallen state because He before hand chose a few and gave up the rest.

Is Christ the savior of all men or just a few selected ones?

Christ saves those who obey Him. If God forces man to obey Him because no man will seek Him, then you have a very unusual relationship of what some would still call love.

 

[DHK]

Is Christ the savior of all men or just a few selected ones?

Christ saves those who obey Him. If God forces man to obey Him because no man will seek Him, then you have a very unusual relationship of what some would still call love.

Not quite right. Christianity is not of works, but pagan religions are.
Christ saves those who choose him. It is a choice, not a forced obedience.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: It is a choice, not a forced obedience.

HP: If it is a choice, is it an act of the will forming an intent? Can you tell me of any work that does not start with precisely with what you call a ‘choice?’

 

[OldRegular]

Is Christ the savior of all men or just a few selected ones?

Jesus Christ is the Savior of those chosen by God the Father before the foundation of the world.

According to your doctrine JSM17 Jesus Christ saves no one. They save themselves.

 

[OldRegular]

It is apparent that some people on this forum do not understand the doctrine of election. No one is forced against his will to believe in God. Rather in regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit, the will of man is changed so that he will use the gift of faith that God has given him.

Unregenerate man does not have a free will. He is in bondage to sin. He is spiritually dead.

I have posted the following a dozen times but no one seems to want to believe them. Very sad!

1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ephesians 2:1-7 [NASB]
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2.in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ [by grace you have been saved] ,
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

OR: According to your doctrine JSM17 Jesus Christ saves no one. They save themselves.

HP: What a croc OR. Nothing JSM17 has indicated in any way that he believes man saves themselves. You simply have no conception of the distinction between the grounds and conditions of salvation.

I certainly do not agree with JSM17 on baptismal regeneration, but even that does not necessitate any such conclusion as OR makes.

 

[JSM17]

DHK WROTE:

Christ saves those who choose him. It is a choice, not a forced obedience.

OLD REGULAR WROTE:

Jesus Christ is the Savior of those chosen by God the Father before the foundation of the world.

So which is it do we choose God or does God choose us?

OLD REGULAR WROTE:

According to your doctrine JSM17 Jesus Christ saves no one. They save themselves.

What is your proof of this statement.

God saves those who obey Him, not those who He make obey Him. Its from the heart and if God changes the heart to make man obey Him then its not really obedience and there is not love. If all men are damned and God elects a few to salvation and leaves the others to hell then, God does not desire that all men be saved.

DOES GOD DESIRE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED??????????????????????????????????


YES OR NO

 

[DHK]

It is apparent that some people on this forum do not understand the doctrine of election. No one is forced against his will to believe in God. Rather in regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit, the will of man is changed so that he will use the gift of faith that God has given him.

One doesn't have to understand election to understand salvation. Forcing one's view of the doctrine of election into the doctrine of soteriology can really mess up one's theology. There is obviously free will. John 3:16 declares that dogmatically, as does every other "whosever will" verse in the Bible, and they are numerous.
1. There is no such thing as regeneration coming before actual salvation.
2. God doesn't give faith to the unbeliever. God gives faith to the believer after salvation. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. But that applies to the believer.
There was a gift of faith, one of the spiritual gifts of faith mentioned in 1Cor.12. But spiritual gifts, whether they were tongues, healing, miracles or faith, were only given to believers, never unbelievers. God does not give faith to an unbeliever.

When a person trusts Christ as Saviour he puts his faith in Christ. It is his faith that saves him. He must choose. He must decide. It is his choice. The choice is given to him by God. He of his own choice, his own volition freely chooses whether or not to be saved; whether or not to receive or reject Christ. It is his choice. Neither God nor the devil will force him one way or the other. Man is not forced to choose Christ. He himself must put his faith in Christ. This is the way that God has chosen for man to attain salvation. God Himself ordained it to be so.

Just because God knows; because he is omniscient; because he has foreknowledge, does not mean that he has made the choice for man. It is man that must choose. It is still man's responsibility. God, being omniscient, simply knows what choice man will make before he makes it. After all, he is omniscient. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Just because God knows; because he is omniscient; because he has foreknowledge, does not mean that he has made the choice for man. It is man that must choose. It is still man's responsibility. God, being omniscient, simply knows what choice man will make before he makes it. After all, he is omniscient. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be God.

HP: You have a lot of good things to say in your post. I believe your comment above is especially on target. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: You have a lot of good things to say in your post. I believe your comment above is especially on target.

I keep telling you I am not a Calvinist HP.

 

[JSM17]

OLD REGULAR WROTE:

Quote:
Jesus Christ is the Savior of those chosen by God the Father before the foundation of the world.

OLD REGULAR WROTE:

Quote:
According to your doctrine JSM17 Jesus Christ saves no one. They save themselves.

JSM17 Wrote:

What is your proof of this statement.

God saves those who obey Him, not those who He make obey Him. Its from the heart and if God changes the heart to make man obey Him then its not really obedience and there is not love. If all men are damned and God elects a few to salvation and leaves the others to hell then, God does not desire that all men be saved.

DOES GOD DESIRE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED??????????????????????????????????


YES OR NO

I would be interested to hear what your response is OR.