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The new Charles Finney?

SolaSaint

SolaSaint

Well-Known Member
I find it strange that so many in here complain about judging. I think it is a good thing to discern methods of men especially when they demand their church follow their vision or get out of the way. I suggest you all do a little research on Furtick before you side with him. One of the main problems with modern evangelicalism is the pragmatism it promotes. Don't ask any questions or dare judge if the numbers are there it must be right.

I'll gladly worship with a small number of genuine believers over gushing over a multitude who are emotionally drawn to a charismatic preacher. You may call Reformed churches dying out because of judging, but I believe it to be the result of them being God pleasers and not man pleasers. :wavey:
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
preachinjesus said:
He's not a heretic. That is a misunderstanding of what it means to be a heretic.
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I don't know much about Furtick, but Finney, IMO, was a heretic. He didn't believe in the depravity of man. He believed all men were essentially good; that it was possible to have a community of "sinless saints."
He was theology was known as Oberlin theology, named after the college he was president of.
It was Finney that popularized the "altar call," but along with it added in some extremes. His philosophy was "the end justifies the means." Use any method you like as long as you reach that desired end. Many of those "means" may have been unethical.
 
preachinjesus

preachinjesus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SolaSaint said:
I find it strange that so many in here complain about judging. I think it is a good thing to discern methods of men especially when they demand their church follow their vision or get out of the way. I suggest you all do a little research on Furtick before you side with him. One of the main problems with modern evangelicalism is the pragmatism it promotes. Don't ask any questions or dare judge if the numbers are there it must be right.

I'll gladly worship with a small number of genuine believers over gushing over a multitude who are emotionally drawn to a charismatic preacher. You may call Reformed churches dying out because of judging, but I believe it to be the result of them being God pleasers and not man pleasers. :wavey:
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Who on this board in this thread has been praising Furtick without offering critique? Who in this thread has said we shouldn't hold other churches and pastors accountable for their theology? Who on this board and in this thread has gushed over his ministry? Who is saying that we should legitimate his methods because of numbers?

I respectfully disagree with you on the nature of his ministry, but do call for him to be held accountable. However, given the nature of being baptist that is a limited call on my part.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SolaSaint said:
Rev, from what I have read in your posts I will assume you like Finney. That is OK, but I feel he started what many view as a downgrade in America away from good reformed theology and soteriology. His was more of a manipulation of emotions instead of allowing God's word and Holy Spirit to to bring faith and justification through preaching. Getting people all worked up and emotional has a real danger in bringing about false converts. I would have nothing to do with that.
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Would say Charles Finney popularized theconcept thatthe sinners determine by their free will choices whether to get saved or now, and that we have to appeal to them for an emotional response, that enough of the free will remained to havethem make the decisions, so just had to stir them up, convice them into salvation thru facts/emotions!
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK said:
I don't know much about Furtick, but Finney, IMO, was a heretic. He didn't believe in the depravity of man. He believed all men were essentially good; that it was possible to have a community of "sinless saints."
He was theology was known as Oberlin theology, named after the college he was president of.
It was Finney that popularized the "altar call," but along with it added in some extremes. His philosophy was "the end justifies the means." Use any method you like as long as you reach that desired end. Many of those "means" may have been unethical.
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He was at th extreme/fringe end of those who espoused state of sinless perfection/holiness, that we basically determine pur own salvation and spiritual condition!
 
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Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yeshua1 said:
Would say Charles Finney popularized theconcept thatthe sinners determine by their free will choices whether to get saved or now, and that we have to appeal to them for an emotional response, that enough of the free will remained to havethem make the decisions, so just had to stir them up, convice them into salvation thru facts/emotions!
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I am sure you would.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Revmitchell said:
First America has never been predominantly reformed. I have no idea where anyone gets such an idea. Second, running away from emotion is contrary to scripture. When you repent of your sin how in the world do you not get emotional? Have you not ever been overwhelmed with the HG? I have and I can assure you it is quite emotional.


Emotion does not equal manipulation. No wonder reformed churches are small and dry. Lack of emotion means a dead church.
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While many of them are, that depends upon the pastor and leadership, for look at Dr james D kennedy/John MacArthurs churches!

Also think MANY large baptists churches, who hold to reformedSotierology, but not all the rest of calvinism are growing and moving!
 
SolaSaint

SolaSaint

Well-Known Member
I rank Finney among the most detrimental to American Christianity, right up there with Robert Schuler and Rick Warren. What they all have in common is a man centered gospel, yes even a semi-pelagainism. Many might say this all has resulted in many professions of faith, but how many are genuine. I know many will say we cannot tell the difference between the sheep and goats so fill our churches with as many as possible and let God work it out. I guess this has some merit but the problem I have always had is that we who are leading churches in this direction are responsible and I cannot sleep at night knowing I may lead someone to a false profession of faith.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SolaSaint said:
I rank Finney among the most detrimental to American Christianity, right up there with Robert Schuler and Rick Warren. What they all have in common is a man centered gospel, yes even a semi-pelagainism. Many might say this all has resulted in many professions of faith, but how many are genuine. I know many will say we cannot tell the difference between the sheep and goats so fill our churches with as many as possible and let God work it out. I guess this has some merit but the problem I have always had is that we who are leading churches in this direction are responsible and I cannot sleep at night knowing I may lead someone to a false profession of faith.
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finney would have fit right in with charasmatic preachers, all emotional, appealing to us to get right with God...
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Revmitchell said:
You do not know that.
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No, he wasn't Charismatic; more of a social reformer.
From Beale's "In Pursuit of Purity," chapter six:
Finney (1792-1875), denied the doctrine of the imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt to his posterity...
The pragmatic tendency was revealed in Finney’s attitude toward revivals: “Revival is not a miracle, or dependent on a miracle in any sense. It is a purely philosophical result of the right use of the constituted means.”
He justified the means that he used on the basis of the results he achieved. If his “new measures” persuaded men to make professions of faith, then they must be legitimate.

The pragmatic tendency was revealed in Finney’s attitude toward revivals: “Revival is not a miracle, or dependent on a miracle in any sense. It is a purely philosophical result of the right use of the constituted means.” He justified the means that he used on the basis of the results he achieved. If his “new measures” persuaded men to make professions of faith, then they must be legitimate.

Oberlin Perfectionism taught that man is capable of attaining entire sanctification in this life.
Finney assumed that God cannot justly require a man to do anything he is unable to do, and thus the law is brought down to the level of a man’s ability. Furthermore, if every man can be entirely sanctified, then society itself is also perfectible.
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