DeafPosttrib
New Member
Matt. 24:32 do nothing with physical nation- Israel. Christ was talking about the SIGNS, that we shall see these are happing as his coming draw near.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The next temple.
- Thread starter mima
- Start date
Mt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch (Jesus) is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, (God) which made a marriage for his son, (Jesus)
3 And sent forth his servants to call them (Jews) that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; (70 years)
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (Jerusalem 70 AD)
The generation of "his branch" didn't pass until Israel as a Nation was destroyed, "Her branch" is the restoration of that nation.
You're arguing against both "OT prophecy/History", and friend, you can't deny/change "history", (unless you're a liberal).
[/QUOTE]Mt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: (Jesus)
Mr 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: (Jesus)
Mr 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
1. Why do you write “ His branch” in Matt. 24:32? That is not what the text says.
2. Zec 6:12 refers to Jesus and His spiritual Temple:
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
3. Matt 24 is using the fig tree only as an example. Not as a picture of Israel. Now if you wish to make Israel synonymous with the Fig tree then Jesus does that earlier:
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree in the way, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only. And He said to it, let no fruit grow on you forever. And immediately the fig tree withered away.
What does this do to the dispie view of Israel?
Proof that it is not a parable of Israel can be found in Luke’s account:
Luk 21:29 And He spoke a parable to them: Behold the fig-tree and all the trees .
Luk 21:30 Now when they sprout leaves, seeing it you will know that summer is now near.
If you wish to hold to the dispie view, then what other nations is Luke referring to when he says “all” the trees?
Well, if Eze. 37 is fulfilled in the rebirth of Israel in 1948 then please explain these passages:
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD , when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
When Israel became a state again in 1948 did they acknowledge Jesus as Lord? Israel is mostly secular and atheist. Please explain.
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you , and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Did God put His spirit in Israel in 1948? Please explain.
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Compare this with Jer. 31:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
You and bapmom agree with the dispie view that the New Covenant is not yet in effect? If it is then Jer. 31 and Eze. 37 have been fulfilled.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Are you still waiting on this? Paul wasn’t:
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Wow, I guess the inspired NT writers were wrong then thinking the end was near.
Hebrews 9: 26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
I Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh .
Why would these inspired NT writers say His coming was near and they were in the "last days" if Jesus said they would not know the times or seasons? It seems if dispies are correct then most of the NT writers a false prophets that Jesus warned us about:
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived : for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near : go ye not therefore after them.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand : be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Jo$h: //Ed I hate to disappoint you but that prophecy
was already fulfilled.//
Behold, thou speaketh riddles and no man
knoweth of which you speak.
A historical date, a historical event, a scripture,
most anything could clearify what you are speaking about.
Thank you.
Brother Bob.
You asked:
"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast
redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev. 5:9-10
Of course it is understood plainly that these words are being spoken by believers that have passed from the physical body and have entered into heaven.
..and BTW, this portion from Scripture emphatically disproves preterism and amillennialism as well.
It disproves preterism since their was no way that in 70AD every kindred and tongue on the earth had heard the Gospel. We are close to that today though. And of course verse 10 disproves amillennialism.
And I would argue that the Woman from Rev. 12 is Israel and not the church. Jesus gave birth to the church and not the other way around.
And of course the devil has been trying to eliminate Israel since their inception.
You asked:
Well, here is a portion from Scripture that proves that we will live and reign of earth for a while...
"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast
redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev. 5:9-10
Of course it is understood plainly that these words are being spoken by believers that have passed from the physical body and have entered into heaven.
..and BTW, this portion from Scripture emphatically disproves preterism and amillennialism as well.
It disproves preterism since their was no way that in 70AD every kindred and tongue on the earth had heard the Gospel. We are close to that today though. And of course verse 10 disproves amillennialism.
And I would argue that the Woman from Rev. 12 is Israel and not the church. Jesus gave birth to the church and not the other way around.
And of course the devil has been trying to eliminate Israel since their inception.
Has the generation who saw Israel become a nation, "passed away", or is there some time left??
Luke is a "third witnesses" to what Matt, Mark, wrote of the fig tree parables.
De 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Albert Barnes
Dan 11:36 -
And the king shall do according to his will - Shall be absolute and supreme, and shall accomplish his purposes. This refers, it seems to me, beyond question, to Antiochus Epiphanes, and was exactly fulfilled in him. He accomplished his purposes in regard to the city and temple in the most arbitrary manner, and was, in every respect, an absolute despot. It should be said, however, here, that most Christian interpreters suppose that the allusion here to Antiochus ceases, and that henceforward, it refers to Antichrist. So Jerome, Gill, Bp. Newton, and others; and so Jerome says many of the Jews understood it. The only reason alleged for this is, that there are things affirmed here of the “king” which could not be true of Antiochus. But, in opposition to this, it may be observed
(a) that the allusion in the previous verses is undoubtedly to Antiochus Epiphanes.
(b) There is no indication of any “change,” for the prophetic narrative seems to proceed as if the allusion to the same person continued.
(c) The word “king” is not a word to be applied to Antichrist, it being nowhere used of him.
(d) Such a transition, without anymore decided marks of it, would not be in accordance with the usual method in the prophetic writings, leaving a plain prediction in the very midst of the description, and passing on at once to a representation of one who would arise after many hundreds of years, and of whom the former could be considered as in no way the type. The most obvious and honest way, therefore, of interpreting this is, to refer it to Antiochus, and perhaps we shall find that the difficulty of applying it to him is not insuperable.
And he shall exalt himself - No one can doubt that this will agree with Antiochus Epiphanes - a proud, haughty, absolute, and stern monarch, the purpose of whose reign was to exalt himself, and to extend the limits of his empire.
And magnify himself above every god - That is, by directing what gods should or should not be worshipped; attempting to displace the claim of all those who were worshipped as gods at his pleasure, and establishing the worship of other gods in their place. Thus he assumed the right to determine what god should be worshipped in Jerusalem, abolishing the worship of Jehovah, and setting up that of Jupiter Olympius in the stead; and so throughout his whole dominion, by a proclamation, he forbade the worship of any god but his, 1 Macc. 1:44-51; Jos. Ant. b. xii. ch. v. Section 4, 5. One who assumes or claims the right to forbid the adoration of any particular god, and to order divine homage to be rendered to anyone which he chooses, exalts himself above the gods, as he in this way denies the right which they must be supposed to claim to prescribe their own worship.
And shall speak marvelous things - The Hebrew word נפלאות nîpelâ'ôth would properly denote things wonderful, or fitted to excite astonishment; things that are unusual and extraordinary: and the meaning here is, that the things spoken would be so impious and atrocious - so amazing and wonderful for their wickedness, as to produce amazement.
Against the God of gods - The true God, Jehovah; he is supreme, and is superior to all that is called God, or that is worshipped as such. Nothing could be better descriptive of Antiochus than this; nothing was ever more strikingly fulfilled than this was in him.
And shall prosper until the indignation be accomplished - Referring still to the fact that there was an appointed time during which this was to continue. That time might well be called a time of “indignation,” for the Lord seemed to be angry against his temple and people, and suffered this pagan king to pour out his wrath without measure against the temple, the city, and the whole land.
For that that is determined shall be done - What is purposed in regard to the city and temple, and to all other things, must be accomplished. Compare Dan_10:21. The angel here states a general truth - that all that God has ordained will come to pass. The application of this truth here is, that the series of events must be suffered to run on, and that it could not be expected that they would be arrested until all that had been determined in the Divine mind should be effected. They who would suffer, therefore, in those times must wait with patience until the Divine purposes should be brought about, and when the period should arrive, the calamities would cease.
Even those who feel it is still future acknowledge it had a fulfillment in Antiochus:
Wesley:
Dan 11:36 - The king - Antiochus was an eminent type of antichrist; to whom many things that follow may be applied by way of accommodation: altho' they principally refer to Antiochus, and had their primary accomplishment in him. For that that is determined - That which God hath decreed to be done by him shall be done; and that which God hath purposed to be done upon him.
Matthew Henry:
Dan 11:21-45 -
All this is a prophecy of the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes, the little horn spoken of before (Dan_8:9) a sworn enemy to the Jewish religion, and a bitter persecutor of those that adhered to it. What troubles the Jews met with in the reigns of the Persian kings were not so particularly foretold to Daniel as these, because then they had living prophets with them, Haggai and Zechariah, to encourage them; but these troubles in the days of Antiochus were foretold, because, before that time, prophecy would cease, and they would find it necessary to have recourse to the written word. Some things in this prediction concerning Antiochus are alluded to in the New Testament predictions of the antichrist, especially Dan_11:36, Dan_11:37. And as it is usual with the prophets, when they foretel the prosperity of the Jewish church, to make use of such expressions as were applicable to the kingdom of Christ, and insensibly to slide into a prophecy of that, so, when they foretel the troubles of the church, they make use of such expressions as have a further reference to the kingdom of the antichrist, the rise and ruin of that. Now concerning Antiochus, the angel foretels here,
Let's see what genea means then, since you think it means 70 years.
Five Greek Lexicons: genea.
(1) The interval of time between father & son... from thirty to forty years those living in any one period; this present generation.
(2) A generation of mankind, a step in genealogy.
(3) A generation, an interval in time.
(4) The whole multitude of men living at the same time--Mt xxiv.34... used esp. of the Jewish race living at one and the same period.
(5) The sum total of those born at the same time... all those living at the same time... contemporaries... Mt. 24:34.
Twenty-Five Bible Dictionaries: genea.
(1) Those born at the same time constitute a generation... contemporaries.
(2) Thus Herodotus says that "three generations of men make an hundred years."
(3) It is used of people living at the same time, and by extension... of the time itself... 40 years.
(4) Of the 43 references to genea in the NT... 25 (are) of its occurrences to the Jewish people in the time of Jesus.
(5) The whole multitude of men living at the same time. A period ordinarily occupied by each successive generation, say, of thirty or forty years.
(6) It mostly denotes "generation" in the sense of contemporaries... Mt. 24:34. This generation is to be understood temporally.
(7) The age or period of a body of contemporaries.... The generation lasts as long as any of the members survive.
(8) ... from thirty to forty years....
(9) ... the sum total of individuals forming a contemporary group.
(10) The period of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their children... most biblical writers seem to consider thirty to forty years a normal generation.
(11) ...the period from a man's birth to that of his son--and collectively the people who live in that period.
(12) ...the period of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their children... the term simply refers to all people living at a particular time.
(13) A body of people who live at the same time in a given period of history.
(14) ...from thirty to forty years... contemporaries.
(15) Used in the general sense of a period of time, the span of one human life, or those who live at a particular period of time.
(16) The "circle" of life, spanning from a man's birth to that of his son... forty years.
(17) Mt. 24:34--"This generation" equals the persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(18) The age or period of a body of contemporaries....
(19) Mt. 24:34--"This generation" equals the persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(20) ...about 25 years. A generation is all the people living at about the same period of time, Mt 24:34.
(21) In general, the word generation in the Bible refers to any contemporary group.
(22) It was fixed by some at 100 years, by others at 110, by others at 33, 25, and even at 20 years.
(23) Of all men living at any given time... Mt 24:34... a period of about 30 to 33 years.
(24) Matt xxiv.34, "This generation shall not pass...." All who are at present living shall not be dead when this shall come to pass. There are some at this day living, who shall be witnesses of the evils which I have foretold shall befall the Jews.
(25) We must adhere to the ordinary usage, according to which dor signifies an age, or the men living in a particular age.
Six Bible Encyclopedias: genea.
(1) Genea refers to a period of time loosely defined as the time between a parent's prime and that of his child.... Those living at a given time in history are referred to as a generation.
(2) Matt. 24:34, genea means the generation or persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(3) Genea: It has the concept of the sum total of those born at the same time--contemporaries.
(4) Genea means the generation of persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(5) Matt. xxix.34, genea means the generation or persons then living contemporary with Christ.
(6) "The present generation" comprises all those who are now alive. Matt xxiv.34, some now living shall witness the event foretold. Our Lord uses the term to express a period of about 36 or 37 years... say about A.D. 70.
Sixteen Bible Commentaries: genea.
(1) ...verse 34 solemnly promises that Jesus will return while some of his contemporaries are still alive (a reprise of 16:28).... The gospel testimony provides strong support for this view: Jesus did not know all things.
(2) (This generation) can only with the greatest of difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke.
(3) "This generation" clearly designates the contemporaries of Jesus.
(4) The statement in verse 34 is a difficult one. If generation is to be taken in this strict sense, then "all these things" must be limited to the events culminating in A.D. 70.... The majority of the best scholars today insist that generation be taken in its strictest sense.
(5) Jesus was quite certain that they would happen within the then living generation.
(6) [Matthew] probably believed, however, that the end could come before all of Jesus' hearers had died.
(7) Further, he [Jesus] insists that his words are infallible, and that they are more certain than the material universe itself....
(8) This verse recalls 16.28, and affirms that some of the disciples would live to see the Parousia. This would presuppose a relatively early date for the event.... Was Jesus in error in his prediction of the nearness of the end?
(9) In the Old Testament a generation was reckoned as forty years. This is the natural way to take verse 34.... He plainly stated in verse 34 that those events would take place in that generation.... One may, of course, accuse Jesus of hopeless confusion.... It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the end within the lifetime of his contemporaries.
(10) The hard fact still remains that if Jesus spoke the sayings of St. Mark xiii and St. Matthew xxiv... he misjudged the extent of his own knowledge and uttered a definite prediction which was not fulfilled.
(11) The Synoptists fell into the contradiction... of making Jesus declare at one moment that He did not know the time of the glorious Advent, and at another that it would infallibly happen within that generation.
(12) The affirmation that "all these things" will happen in this generation is clear, and there is no reason to alter the meaning of the word generation from its usual sense except a fear that the Scriptures may be in error if it is not so altered.
(13) Indeed, the fulfillment will take place before this present generation has passed away.
(14) Did Jesus expect the end within the lifetime of those who heard him speak? It seems quite certain that the early church so understood him.
(15) Matthew made it clear that some of the first disciples would live to see the Parousia.
(16) ... v. 34; there are those now alive, who shall see Jerusalem destroyed.
Now let's see Jesus' use of this generation
Matt 11:16 “But to what shall I compare this generation?
Matt 12:41&42 “The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. 42“The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here
Matt 12:45 “Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”
Who is Jesus talking too when He says this generation? Some distant generation and not his contemporaries? If He was, He would say "that generation 2000 years from now and what I am saying to YOU means absolutley NOTHING".
Scripture cannot mean what it did not mean to it's original hearers.
If Daniel's book isn't going to be opened until the "time of the end", (end of time) do you think the people of Jesus's day understood all prophecy, even the disciple ask Jesus when Israel would be restored and he refused to tell them.
And if we do understand "Daniel's book", then according to scripture, it's the "time of the end", don't ya think???
You tell me, where does Jesus tell us who the son of perdition is?
Often repeated false statement by dispies,“time of the end” does not mean “end of time”. But as I posted earlier and you have yet to respond to, Peter tells us he was in the “end times”.
I Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand : be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
I assume he understood Daniel better than anyone on this board.
If that is true, then you clearly prove we are not in the “time of the end”.
Perhaps you would now like to answer my questions posed to you regarding EZ. 37, and the New Covenant.
I wish somebody would, bapmom didn't, me4Him didn't, so perhaps you will???
Are you saying you don't know who betrayed Jesus??
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (rapture) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist (Son of perdition) shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Jesus was born/Crucified "in the evening" of the "Fourth day", we only have the 5th, 6th, day until the 7th day or Mill reign begins.
Until there was a "Christ" there couldn't be an "Antichrist".
If her branch is to be the last generation, then her branch can only be restored within a generation of the "time of the end", don't ya think??And if we do understand "Daniel's book", then according to scripture, it's the "time of the end", don't ya think???
If that is true, then you clearly prove we are not in the “time of the end”.
You need to study the chronology of the scriptures.
So Judas is coming again?
By the way, I like how you just insert words into scripture.
So according to you this is how it reads:
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that (Judas) shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Secondly why does John say he was living in the “last time” 2000 years ago?
You actually make Jack VanImpe look sane.
I guess there is a reason you don’t deal with the passages in Peter I presented.
You need to study scripture.
Brother Bob
New Member
Jackrus;
Revelation, chapter 1
"1": The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
"2": Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
"3": Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
"4": John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
"5": And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
"6": And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(I think we have already conquered over sin by His Grace, we have already been washed in His Blood).
The Woman:
So you don't believe there was a church under the Law? He was to be born of the household and when you say Israel you must mean "true Israel" which was and is the "church". The crown of twelve stars were the twelve tribes of Israel, the clothing of the sun was her countenance, the moon under her feet was the Law, the man child being born was Jesus, the great red dragon was the devil. When Jesus said "upon this rock I build by church, he started with the remmant of Israel.
Jesus gave birth to the "Church" under the Grace Covenant, but He first sent His apostles to call lost sheep of the house of Israel before He sent them into all the world. Also, when He came He came to His own which was Israel or the remenant thereof.
Revelation, chapter 1
"1": The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
"2": Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
"3": Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
"4": John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
"5": And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
"6": And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(I think we have already conquered over sin by His Grace, we have already been washed in His Blood).
The Woman:
So you don't believe there was a church under the Law? He was to be born of the household and when you say Israel you must mean "true Israel" which was and is the "church". The crown of twelve stars were the twelve tribes of Israel, the clothing of the sun was her countenance, the moon under her feet was the Law, the man child being born was Jesus, the great red dragon was the devil. When Jesus said "upon this rock I build by church, he started with the remmant of Israel.
Jesus gave birth to the "Church" under the Grace Covenant, but He first sent His apostles to call lost sheep of the house of Israel before He sent them into all the world. Also, when He came He came to His own which was Israel or the remenant thereof.
Thanks, you help me "See" something I didn't "See" before,
Just as Jesus came "only to his own" the first time, he is coming "only "FOR" his own" in the rapture.
Unbelieving Israel rejected Jesus, so in the rapture, they're rejected.
Like Esau, Israel was entitled to the rights of the "Firstborn", but sold out for the "law", so the "second born" (people who were not a people/Gentiles) became/received the rights of the "firstborn" through Jesus.
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
I knew about the firstborn, but it had never crossed my mind about coming only to/for his own.
The Spirit works in Mysterious ways, uh???
Brother Bob.
Your showing of Rev. 1:6 sure does show that those saints on the earth before death were indeed priests, but even though God will make them kings, they didn't hold to that position yet.
Read Mt. 25:25-28. Is the servant greater than the Master? While Jesus was on the earth He was a servant. When He returns He will live and reign among us. It will also be so for us.
In Rom. 8:30 Paul also shows future promises as in the past tense verb. This is just an emphatic form of the Greek.
As I pointed out in Rev. 5:9-10, these saints are already dead and out of the body. It could be that they have already received their new glorified bodies, but the fact remains. They are saying that sometime in their immediate future they are going back to the earth to reign as kings and priests with Him. So your argument does not stand.
And I don't disagree with your interpretation of the Woman of Rev. 12. But when saying the 'church', most people think of the NT church, or at least the OT and NT saints.
The Woman still could represent the nation of Israel as a whole. Jesus was born a Jew. He didn't have to be born a converted Jew.
Your showing of Rev. 1:6 sure does show that those saints on the earth before death were indeed priests, but even though God will make them kings, they didn't hold to that position yet.
Read Mt. 25:25-28. Is the servant greater than the Master? While Jesus was on the earth He was a servant. When He returns He will live and reign among us. It will also be so for us.
In Rom. 8:30 Paul also shows future promises as in the past tense verb. This is just an emphatic form of the Greek.
As I pointed out in Rev. 5:9-10, these saints are already dead and out of the body. It could be that they have already received their new glorified bodies, but the fact remains. They are saying that sometime in their immediate future they are going back to the earth to reign as kings and priests with Him. So your argument does not stand.
And I don't disagree with your interpretation of the Woman of Rev. 12. But when saying the 'church', most people think of the NT church, or at least the OT and NT saints.
The Woman still could represent the nation of Israel as a whole. Jesus was born a Jew. He didn't have to be born a converted Jew.