The next temple.

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Also, when He came He came to His own which was Israel or the remenant thereof.

Thanks, you help me "See" something I didn't "See" before,

Just as Jesus came "only to his own" the first time, he is coming "only "FOR" his own" in the rapture.

Unbelieving Israel rejected Jesus, so in the rapture, they're rejected.

Like Esau, Israel was entitled to the rights of the "Firstborn", but sold out for the "law", so the "second born" (people who were not a people/Gentiles) became/received the rights of the "firstborn" through Jesus.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I knew about the firstborn, but it had never crossed my mind about coming only to/for his own.

The Spirit works in Mysterious ways, uh???

</font>[/QUOTE]Don't forget Romans 11 too now folks. They too shall join us just as illustrated in Zech. 12:10.

Don't make the mistake of being taken by Replacement Theology.

http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

 

[Brother Bob]

Don't forget the Scripture goes on and says "His own received Him not, but as many as did He gave them power to become the sons of God.

 

[Jo$h]

Don't make the mistake of being taken by Replacement Theology.

Preterists believe in fulfillment theology and that God always keeps his promises even to Israel after the flesh and does not need a 2000 year gap to do it in. Dispensationalists believe in Replacement Theology since God has replaced Israel with the Church.

 

[Grasshopper]

Don't forget Romans 11 too now folks. They too shall join us just as illustrated in Zech. 12:10.

But of course anyone familiar with the scripture knows that Zech 12:10 was fulfilled:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced , and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

 

[genesis12]

Dispensationalists believe in Replacement Theology since God has replaced Israel with the Church.

Huge error, Jo$h. Dispensationalists reject replacement theology outright. The promise of a literal Kingdom to the Jews is still valid, just postponed. The age of grace (the church) is a parenthesis in the fulfillment of God's promise to the Jews.

 

[Jo$h]

Huge error, Jo$h. Dispensationalists reject replacement theology outright. The promise of a literal Kingdom to the Jews is still valid, just postponed. The age of grace (the church) is a parenthesis in the fulfillment of God's promise to the Jews.

Not so, you believe that the Church has replaced Israel over the last 2000 years. I believe the Church is the result of God's promise to the Israel. You believe God cannot do anything without the Jews permission. I believe his promises are right on time.

John 6:15 So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone.

The Jews already tried to make Jesus their physical king and He rejected them, why you ask?

John 18:36 My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.(Kosmos, the physical observable realm)

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Jo$h:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Don't make the mistake of being taken by Replacement Theology.

Preterists believe in fulfillment theology and that God always keeps his promises even to Israel after the flesh and does not need a 2000 year gap to do it in. Dispensationalists believe in Replacement Theology since God has replaced Israel with the Church. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm a dispensationalist and I don't believe in Replacement Theology. In fact I have never met one that does.

And why would a Preterist think that God saved Israel 2000 years ago?

 

[genesis12]

I've read lots of misinterpretations of the dispensational position, Jo$h. This ranks among the top 10. I'd suggest you do your homework before you post these misunderstandings.

 

[Grasshopper]

I've read lots of misinterpretations of the dispensational position, Jo$h. This ranks among the top 10. I'd suggest you do your homework before you post these misunderstandings.

Speaking of not doing homework, preterist do not believe in Replacement Theology either.

Thomas Ice:

"I could almost agree with his definition if he removed the phrase 'all time.' We dispensationalists believe that the church has superseded Israel during the current church age, but God has a future time in which He will restore national Israel 'as the institution for the administration of divine blessings to the world.'"

Dispies are much closer to "replacement theology" than preterist.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by JackRUS:

Don't make the mistake of being taken by Replacement Theology.

http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

Israel is only "blinded" until Jesus get his Bride, the church, (rapture) then Israel will go back under the leadership system of the "law and prophets" for the trib. (Two witnesses, Moses/Elijah)

The trib is a time of chastisement for Israel in rejecting "God". (Jesus)


All the promises God made concerning Abraham/David would have to be broken before the church could "replace" Israel.

Ps 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Ps 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him (AC) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power (Staff) was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Jesus said if his kingdom was of this world his servants would fight, when he returns both him and his servant (Michael) will fight, and why, to make this world his kingdom.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered,

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Don't forget Romans 11 too now folks. They too shall join us just as illustrated in Zech. 12:10.

But of course anyone familiar with the scripture knows that Zech 12:10 was fulfilled:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced , and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. </font>[/QUOTE]But you left out the end of the passage that states that "and they shall mourn for
him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Thy and tell me that has happen in the hearts of the people of Israel as a whole anytime in history.

And as I stated earlier, in Rev. 5:9-10 it says that every findred and tongue is represented in Heaven based on their belief in Christ. Can you argue that that was the case in or around 70AD?

So then, Preterism is bunk. As is amillennialism since these saiths say that they will be priests and kings on earth in the near future.

The Gospel is still going out to new kindreds and tongues as we speak. I know. My pastor is a former missionary with New Tribes Missions and used to train missionaries for them. We just has a missionary named Mark Zook who along with his wife took the Gospel to New Guinea where the Mouk tribe was converter in droves. They have a separate language and now believe. http://www.ntm.org/

And of course exactly no believers existed in the Western Hemisphere in the first century, so then preterism is totally disproved by these verses.

 

[Jo$h]

And why would a Preterist think that God saved Israel 2000 years ago?

Why wouldn't He Jack? He said He would.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:

Don't make the mistake of being taken by Replacement Theology.

http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

Israel is only "blinded" until Jesus get his Bride, the church, (rapture) then Israel will go back under the leadership system of the "law and prophets" for the trib. (Two witnesses, Moses/Elijah)

The trib is a time of chastisement for Israel in rejecting "God". (Jesus)


All the promises God made concerning Abraham/David would have to be broken before the church could "replace" Israel.

Ps 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Ps 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him (AC) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power (Staff) was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Jesus said if his kingdom was of this world his servants would fight, when he returns both him and his servant (Michael) will fight, and why, to make this world his kingdom.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, </font>[/QUOTE]I totally agree!

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Jo$h:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> And why would a Preterist think that God saved Israel 2000 years ago?

Why wouldn't He Jack? He said He would. </font>[/QUOTE]What? 2000 years ago???

And exactly where is the evidence of that belief among Jews throughout the last 200 years of history.

You're joking, right?

 

[genesis12]

Well, wrong again, grasshopper. There is a fundamental misunderstanding of dispensationalism in your post. We do not believe that the church has superseded Israel. Thomas Ice is wrong, as well. To supersede means to obliterate, replace, make void, or useless; to take the place of, as by reason of superior worth or right. Dispensationalism does not displace the Kingdom promise to Israel. On the contrary, the church is a parenthesis in God's plan for the ages, not a replacement. The age of grace, or the church age, is for Gentiles and those Jews who believe. It has nothing to do with replacing Israel.

Replacement Theology, on the other hand, says that the church has replaced Israel ~ that there is no future Kingdom for the Jews.

 

[Jo$h]

THE CHILDREN OF GOD
A) Israel Are The Children Of God:
- Ex. 4:22, Deut. 14:1, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 1:2,4, Isa. 63:8, Hos. 11:1
B) Disobedient Israel Are Not The Children Of God
- Deut. 32:5, John 8:39, 42, 44
C) Christians Are The Children Of God:
- John 1:12, John 11:52, Rom. 8:14,16, 2 Cor. 6:18, Gal. 3:26, Gal. 4:5,6,7, Phil. 2:15, 1 John 3:1

THE KINGDOM OF GOD
A) Israel Is The Kingdom Of God:
- Ex. 19:6, 1 Chr. 17:14, 1 Chr. 28:5
B) Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom Of God:
- Matt. 8:11,12, Matt. 21:43
C) Christians Are The Kingdom Of God:
- Rom. 14:17, 1 Cor. 4:20, Col. 1:13, Col. 4:11, Rev. 1:6

THE PEOPLE OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The People Of God:
- Ex. 6:7, Deut. 27:9, 2 Sam. 7:23, Jer. 11:4
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God :
- Hos. 1:9, Jer. 5:10
C) The Christians Are The People Of God:
- Rom. 9:25, 2 Cor. 6:16, Eph. 4:12, Eph. 5:3, 2 Th. 1:10, Tit. 2:14

THE PRIESTS OF GOD
A) The Israelites Are The Priests Of God:
- Ex. 19:6
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God :
- 1 Sam. 2:28,30, Lam. 4:13,16, Eze. 44:10,13, Hos. 4:6, Mal. 2:2,4,8,9
C) The Christians Are The Priests Of God:
- 1 Pet. 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10

THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM
A) The Israelites Are The Children Of Abraham:
- 2 Chr. 20:7, Psa. 105:6, Isa. 41:8
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of Abraham :
- John 8:39, Rom. 9:6,7, Gal. 4:25,30
C) The Christians Are The Children Of Abraham:
- Rom. 4:11,16, Gal. 3:7,29, Gal. 4:23,28,31

THE CHOSEN PEOPLE
A) The Israelites Are The Chosen People:
- Deut. 7:7, Deut. 10:15, Deut. 14:2, Isa. 43:20,21
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Chosen People :
- Deut. 31:17, 2 Ki. 17:20, 2 Chr. 25:7, Psa. 78:59, Jer. 6:30, Jer. 7:29, Jer. 14:10
C) The Christians Are The Chosen People:
- Col. 3:12, 1 Pet. 2:9

THE CIRCUMCISED
A) The Israelites Are The Circumcised:
- Gen. 17:10, Jud. 15:18
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Circumcised
- Jer. 9:25,26, Rom. 2:25,28, Phil. 3:2
C) The Christians Are The Circumcised:
- Rom. 2:29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11

ISRAEL
A) Israel is Israel
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites :
- Num. 15:30,31, Deut. 18:19, Acts 3:23, Rom. 9:6
C) The Christians Are Israel:
- John 11:50,51,52, 1 Cor. 10:1, Gal. 6:15,16, Eph. 2:12,19

THE JEWS
A) Israelites Are Jews
- Ezr. 5:1, Jer. 34:8,9, Zech. 8:22,23
B) Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews :
- Rom. 2:28, Rev. 2:9, Rev. 3:9
C) The Christians Are Jews:
- Rom. 2:29

Jews that accepted Christ as their Messiah were obedient Jews and so "All Israel is saved" they were the remnant.

 

[Me4Him]

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Jesus/church wasn't revealed to Israel in the OT, most likely giving Israel an opportunity to accept Jesus "BY FAITH" rather than "signs and wonders".

Not being able to find Jesus/Church mentioned in the OT, Israel rejected Jesus/Church.

The NT revealed Jesus/church in the OT, but if you don't accept Jesus, you don't accept the NT either, therefore, they are "Blinded".

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Israel had no choice but to go to "Joseph" (prefigure of Christ) for "bread" when the famine came, because they were in "tribulations", and they'll have no place to go but to Jesus for the "bread of life" when placed in "great tribulation" agains.

Am 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: (bread of life)

 

[Jo$h]

Jesus/church wasn't revealed to Israel in the OT, most likely giving Israel an opportunity to accept Jesus "BY FAITH" rather than "signs and wonders"

What were the Bereans using to check up on Paul and his doctrines? What was Paul quoting from when he was refering to the church?

OT is the NT concealed the NT is the OT revealed.

OLD TESTAMENT VERSES REFERRING TO ISRAEL WHICH ARE QUOTED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AS REFERRING TO THE CHRISTIANS
QUOTE #1
- Lev. 26:11,12, Eze. 37:27, 2 Cor. 6:16
QUOTE #2
- Deut. 30:12-14, Rom. 10:6-8
QUOTE #3
- Deut. 31:6, Heb. 13:5
QUOTE #4
- Deut. 32:36, Psa. 135:14, Heb. 10:30
QUOTE #5
- Psa. 22:22, Heb. 2:12
QUOTE #6
- Psa. 44:22, Rom. 8:36
QUOTE #7
- Psa. 95:7-11, Heb. 3:7-11
QUOTE #8
- Psa. 130:8, Tit. 2:14
QUOTE #9
- Isa. 28:16, Rom. 10:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:6
QUOTE #10
- Isa. 49:8, 2 Cor. 6:2
QUOTE #11
- Isa. 52:7, Rom. 10:15
QUOTE #12
- Isa. 54:1, Gal. 4:27
QUOTE #13
- Jer. 31:31-34, Heb. 8:8-12
QUOTE #14
- Hos. 1:10; 2:23, Rom. 9:25-26, 1 Pet. 2:10
QUOTE #15
- Hos. 13:14, 1 Cor. 15:55
QUOTE #16
- Joel. 2:32, Rom. 10:13

 

[Grasshopper]

And as I stated earlier, in Rev. 5:9-10 it says that every findred and tongue is represented in Heaven based on their belief in Christ. Can you argue that that was the case in or around 70AD?

And of course exactly no believers existed in the Western Hemisphere in the first century, so then preterism is totally disproved by these verses.

What is this, amateur hour? All of the following verses were fulfilled pre-AD70.

Col.1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven ; whereof I Paul was made a minister

Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:

Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth , And their words unto the ends of the world.

Context Context Context

Well, wrong again, grasshopper. There is a fundamental misunderstanding of dispensationalism in your post. We do not believe that the church has superseded Israel. Thomas Ice is wrong, as well.

Well, congrats. I just introduced you to your first Dispie that believes in Replacement Theology.

I'm a dispensationalist and I don't believe in Replacement Theology. In fact I have never met one that does.

By the way, Ice is a leading dispie teacher of the day.

To supersede means to obliterate, replace, make void, or useless; to take the place of, as by reason of superior worth or right.

Sure does.

On the contrary, the church is a parenthesis in God's plan for the ages,

Where is scriptural evidence for this? Actually I expect no answer since no one has answered any of my questions to this point. But just in case you decide to please show me where scripture indicates the postponement of the Kingdom. Daniel 2?

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Replacement Theology, on the other hand, says that the church has replaced Israel ~ that there is no future Kingdom for the Jews.

As stated earlier, preterist do not believe this. But why let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

Perhaps someone will answer a simple question, is the New Covenant now in effect?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:

Perhaps someone will answer a simple question, is the New Covenant now in effect?

YES, but Israel hasn't accepted it, "YET".

And they'll come under it or not at all, no man comes to the father except by Jesus.