The next temple.

[Jo$h]

Ed you did not answer my question on Jer 50:4-5 Israel must be in a state of repentence to be regathered, were they in a state of repentence in 1948?

Also If we are in the new covenant, which scripture says is forever, why would God go back to a temple system of the old covenant which Paul called bondage (Galatians 4)

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Jo$h:
Ed you did not answer my question on Jer 50:4-5 Israel must be in a state of repentence to be regathered, were they in a state of repentence in 1948?

Also If we are in the new covenant, which scripture says is forever, why would God go back to a temple system of the old covenant which Paul called bondage (Galatians 4)

It's during the trib God binds up the breach between him and Israel, not before.

After the rapture of the Holy Ghost (Voice of Jesus) Church, Israel goes back under the law and prophets system of the OT, the "two witnesses", Moses/Elijah.

Jews won't listen to "Jesus's voice", or believe without "Signs and wonders" which Jesus won't give, save the sign of Jonah.

To understand the scripture you have to know "WHY" things occur, not just "WHAT" is ocurring.

 

[Jo$h]

It's during the trib God binds up the breach between him and Israel, not before.

You still did not answer the question, was Israel regathered in 1948? If it was not then how is God's prophetic time clock starting in 1948?

After the rapture of the Holy Ghost (Voice of Jesus) Church, Israel goes back under the law and prophets system of the OT, the "two witnesses", Moses/Elijah.

Why would they go back to system Paul called "bondage"? Since Jesus came to fulfill the law and if He did not accomplish His task then He FAILED.

Jews won't listen to "Jesus's voice", or believe without "Signs and wonders" which Jesus won't give, save the sign of Jonah.

Matt 9:35 Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Luke 9:11 But the crowds were aware of this and followed Him; and welcoming them, He began speaking to them about the kingdom of God and curing those who had need of healing

John 9:32“Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind 33“If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

John 2:11 This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

John 3:2 "The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that Thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these Miracles that Thou doest, except God be with him."

John 10:38 " believe the works : that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

John 6:2 "And a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His Miracles which He did on them that were diseased."

Mark 1:34 And He healed many who were ill with various diseases, and cast out many demons ast out many demons; and He was not permitting the demons to speak, because they knew who He was.

Matthew 12:28 " But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. "glorifying God, saying, 'We have never seen anything like this.'"

Mark 2:12 And he rose and immediately took up the pallet and went out in the sight of all; so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, " We have never seen anything like this

Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a Man approved of God among you by Miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did , which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written

If these passages are not signs and wonders tell me then so I can understand WHY these things were happening?

[ April 22, 2006, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Jo$h ]

 

[Jo$h]

Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim XI - XII.
The King Messiah will in some future time come, restore the kingdom of David to its former power , build the Temple, bring together the scattered of Israel, and all the ancient laws will again be in force. Sacrifices will be offered, and years of release and Jubilees will be kept as prescribed in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or does not hope for his coming, shows a lack of faith not only in the prophets, but also in the Torah. For the Torah testifies concerning him in the words: 'And the L-rd your God will again bring back your captivity, and show mercy unto you, and again gather you from all the nations...If your outcasts be at the ends of the heavens, from there will the L-rd gather you...and the L-rd will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed...'(Deut. 30:3-5)

You must not imagine that the messiah must prove his messianity by signs and miracles, doing something unexpected, bringing the dead to life, or similar things. The principle thing is this: the statutes and precepts of our Torah remain forever, and nothing can be added to them or taken from them.

"WHY" do think the Mishnah makes such a statement?


Mark 3:22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.”

They had their signs and attributed them to Satan not to God. What the natural man wants is to restore the kingdom of David to its former power not a spiritual kingdom, they want a fleshly, literal, political, materialistic kingdom, the natural kingdom is not God's kingdom.

Jesus told them " But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Jesus told them in parables "The kingdom of God is like ..." it is the nature that is important.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Jo$h: //Ed you did not answer my question on Jer 50:4-5 Israel must be in a state of repentence to be regathered, were they in a state of repentence in 1948?//

I do not believe that 1948 is a key date in the History of Israel.
The Israeli were NOT in a state of repentance in 1948.
I don't think God started Gathering physical Israel in 1948.
I don't think 1948-1260 = 688 is the year that the DOR = Dome of
the Rock was dedicated.

Jo$h: //... why would God go back to a temple system
of the old covenant which Paul called bondage (Galatians 4)//

I still think you don't have a grasp that some predictions of
the Bible are dependent upon and predictive of
the nature of Man not the Nature of an Almighty God.
I.E. your question is a Bad question which cannot be answered
and should not be answered. "God" is not the one going back
to a temple system; unsaved Jewish Israeli are going to go back
to a temple system.

 

[Jo$h]

I do not believe that 1948 is a key date in the History of Israel.
The Israeli were NOT in a state of repentance in 1948.
I don't think God started Gathering physical Israel in 1948.
I don't think 1948-1260 = 688 is the year that the DOR = Dome of
the Rock was dedicated.

So you are saying 1948 was NOT a fulfillment of prophecy? Is Israel fulfilling prophecy today?

I still think you don't have a grasp that some predictions of
the Bible are dependent upon and predictive of
the nature of Man not the Nature of an Almighty God.
I.E. your question is a Bad question which cannot be answered
and should not be answered. "God" is not the one going back
to a temple system; unsaved Jewish Israeli are going to go back
to a temple system.

Of course it can't be answered, it is ridiculous to think the jews will go back to a temple system God established.

If God is not going back to a temple system why does Paul in 2 Thess 2:4 say that the lawless one takes in seat in the TEMPLE OF GOD? So you are saying Paul should have said the temple of the jews 2000 years from now not the 2nd temple?

 

[Mel Miller]

Josh,

Quote:
"It is ridiculous to think the jews will go back to a temple system God established".
________________________________________________

Obviously Jesus did not think it ridiculous since
His prophecy concerning the "abomination in the
temple, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet" was
about the literal Temple of the Jews.

The Disciples understood it was the literal
temple. But, like you, they didn't understand
that the Endtime temple, to which Daniel refers, would be desecrated; but not destroyed.

It will come under the control of the Gentiles for 42 months ... the exact Endtime period which Daniel was told would end with Christ coming with the Saints to "take His kingdom and give it to the people of the Saints". Dan.7:22-27.

Daniel gives the same explicit details of the
events of the Day Christ comes in glory as John
gives in Revelation! John adds that the outer
court will NOT be "measured" since there will
be some kind of agreement, during the first
part of Daniel's 70th Seven, that will be
broken midway to coincide with Dan.9:27; 12:11.
Rev.11:1-2.

The evidence of Matthew pertains to the Endtime
desecration of a 3rd Jewish temple. The evidence of Luke 21 pertains to the destruction of the 2nd temple. Luke doesn't mention the Endtime
great tribulation as the precursor to its total
destruction as of AD 70.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Jo$h: // ... it is ridiculous to think the jews will go back
to a temple system God established.//

Once again, it is proved what God said:

1Co 1:27-29 (KJV1611 Edition)
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world,
to confound the wise: and God hath chosen
the weake things of the world, to confound the things which are mighty:
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised,
hath God chosen, yea and things which are not, to bring
to nought things that are,
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Jo$h: //If God is not going back to a temple system why does Paul in 2 Thess 2:4 say that the lawless one takes in seat in the TEMPLE OF GOD? So you are saying Paul should have said the temple of the jews 2000 years from now not the 2nd temple?//

I didn't say such a thing. Paul did NOT say "2ed Temple"
he said "Temple of God".

 

[Jo$h]

Obviously Jesus did not think it ridiculous since
His prophecy concerning the "abomination in the
temple, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet" was
about the literal Temple of the Jews.

Matt 24:15-16 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-- let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:14 "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong-- let the reader understand-- then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

Luke 21:20-21 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains , let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

All of these passages are in the same sequence,when interpreting the passages altogether, Jesus was saying "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies then know that its deolation has come near."

If it was a literal temple of the jews why did Jesus call it the HOLY PLACE?

The Disciples understood it was the literal temple. But, like you, they didn't understand that the Endtime temple, to which Daniel refers, would be desecrated; but not destroyed.

The disciples understood it was to happen in "THIS GENERATION" not "THAT GENERATION". If they did not understand Jesus was talking about a 3rd Temple and not the 2nd temple that was still standing, then you have some sort of special revelation over them.

It will come under the control of the Gentiles for 42 months ... the exact Endtime period which Daniel was told would end with Christ coming with the Saints to "take His kingdom and give it to the people of the Saints". Dan.7:22-27.

Josephus tells us that on October 4, 66 CE (Tishri 27, 3827) that Cestius Gallus, the governor of the province, brought his troops to Jerusalem and surrounded the city. On October 7, 66 CE (Tishri 30, 3827), Cestius Gallus’ troops proceeded all the way up to the temple area (Josephus, The Wars, Book II, Chapter 19, Sections 4-6). Josephus believed that Gallus would have taken Jerusalem had he continued his siege a little longer. He also believed that it was an act of God that Gallus did not end the war at that time (Josephus, The Wars, Book II, Chapter 19, Sections 4-6). Instead, Gallus withdrew his troops from Jerusalem in October of 66 CE. The Christians left Jerusalem shortly after this withdrawal (Josephus, The Wars, Book II, Chapter 20, Section 1). The Romans came back in 67 CE and waged war against the Jews living in Judea. Three and a half years (42 months) later they destroyed the city of Jerusalem.

Where did the Christians go? Maybe they knew something perhaps they were to FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS.

The evidence of Matthew pertains to the Endtime desecration of a 3rd Jewish temple. The evidence of Luke 21 pertains to the destruction of the 2nd temple. Luke doesn't mention the Endtime
great tribulation as the precursor to its total
destruction.

They are all talking about the same event, they are called the synoptic (harmonizing) gospels for a reason

 

[Jo$h]

I didn't say such a thing. Paul did NOT say "2ed Temple"
he said "Temple of God".

Which temple is he talking about then the jewish temple or the Temple of God?

Is Isreal fulfilling prophecy today?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Jo$h: //Is Isreal fulfilling prophecy today?//

Yes, this prophecy is being fulfilled in our eyes & ears:

Rom 11:25-26 (KJV 1611 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant of this
mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your owne conceits)
that blindnesse in part is happened to Israel,
vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne
away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

 

[Jo$h]

Yes, this prophecy is being fulfilled in our eyes & ears:

Rom 11:25-26 (KJV 1611 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant of this
mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your owne conceits)
that blindnesse in part is happened to Israel,
vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saued, as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliuerer, and shall turne
away vngodlinesse from Iacob.

You are misinterpreting what "fullness of the gentiles means".

Hosea 7:8, " Ephraim mixes himself with the nations

Gen 48:18 Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head.” 19But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.m'loh ha goyim

The word "m'lo" means "fullness". The word "ha" means "the". The word "goyim" means "nations" or "gentiles". Thus the phrase reads, literally, "...Ephraim's descendants shall become the fullness of the [nations or gentiles]."

In the prophets the Northern Kingdom Israel was referred to as "Ephraim".

So what happened Ed to Israel/Ephraim 2700 years ago? Where did God pull Israel from in the first place?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Currently among many groups of racial Jews the
term "goyim" refers to, yes gentiles, but more like
'mindless robots, automen'. It is an insult in most
usages.

The Jews have returned to the promised land
in a secular move. Israel has NOT been returned
to the promised land. This will happen
in the Tribulation period.

 

[Jo$h]

Currently among many groups of racial Jews the
term "goyim" refers to, yes gentiles, but more like
'mindless robots, automen'. It is an insult in most
usages.

I don't care what it means to them, I care what the bible says, you're kingjames translates the word gentiles 30 times.

The Jews have returned to the promised land in a secular move.

Then right now it is NOT their land, since they are not obeying the mosaic covenant.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Currently among many groups of racial Jews the
term "goyim" refers to, yes gentiles, but more like
'mindless robots, automen'. It is an insult in most
usages.

The Jews have returned to the promised land
in a secular move. Israel has NOT been returned
to the promised land. This will happen
in the Tribulation period.

It might be easier to say:

The Jews have returned to Israel,
Israel hasn't been returned to the Jews, "YET".

 

[Jo$h]

Lev 20:22 Obey my laws and teachings . Or else the land I am giving you will become sick of you and throw you out .

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

Quote:
_______________________________________________
"The Jews have returned to the promised land in
a secular move. Israel has NOT been returned to
the promised land. This will happen in the Tribulation period".
_______________________________________________

The Jews ARE returning to the promised land in
unbelief. The first half of the so-called time of tribulation will see the Temple rebuilt and
at least 42 months of a covenant engineered by the arbitration of Mystery Babylon the Great.

Die-hard Pre-Tribbers will continue to expect the Rapture until Ten Kings destroy Babylon in
one hour by fire, turn over their authority and
power to the Beast and he "takes peace from
the earth". Rev.17:16-17; Seal Two: Rev.6:3-4.

It's obvious to me that the ominous signs of Seal 6 occur at noon of one of the (3 1/2) days after the End of tribulation, as Jesus states, rather than during the time of peace that Pre-tribbers insist will be taken away when the Rapture occurs. Mark 13:24; Rev.11:7-11.

It's not true that the sun remains dark for a period of days or months or years. That day will be awesome, terrible and yet glorious! Both a
day of destruction for the blasphemers of God and of deliverance for Israel and for Saints who "overcome to the end".

Those who claim the "end" occurs for the Church at a Pre-trib Rapture force all 250 verses in the Book of Revelation (from Rev.6:1 to 20:5) to be fulfilled in a non-climactic Endtime "forest of trees" rather than 100 of those verses being
fulfilled on the 12-Hour Day that Christ comes
in glory with ALL the Saints.

They can't see the forest for being lost among
the trees represented by these 250 verses. John
states that, as of Seal 6, the first of "seven
things" has come ... all of which occur on that
same 12-Hour Day!! Get the Big Picture and then
find the Three-Concentric Paths for the events
of 100 verses fulfilled within SIX HOURS from
Noon (Amos 8:9) to 6 PM of that Day. Zech.14:6-7.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Jo$h]

The Jews ARE returning to the promised land in
unbelief.

They CANNOT return anywhere unless they repent, if they do not obey the mosaic covenant then land vomits them out, if there is no mosaic covenant then it is NOT their land.

The only promise land anyone is going too is the New Jerusalem in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12:22 "You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering and to the assembly of the first born, who are enrolled in heaven."

Notice the verse says, "You have come to Mount Zion..." Not: you will come.

Those who claim the "end" occurs for the Church at a Pre-trib Rapture force all 250 verses in the Book of Revelation (from Rev.6:1 to 20:5) to be fulfilled in a non-climactic Endtime "forest of trees" rather than 100 of those verses being
fulfilled on the 12-Hour Day that Christ comes
in glory with ALL the Saints.

Those who focus on the events in Revelation to happen 2000 years later, make them useless to the original hearers the 7 churches in Asia minor. Plus they ignore that all events were to happen "shortly, quickly, soon, and at hand"

 

[Mel Miller]

Jo$h,

I'm sorry that you do not take the prophecy of
Ezek.38-39 literally as taking place in "the
last days" when the Jews will suddenly come to "know their God" as they did long ago.

For only then, after they "dwell safely in
unwalled villages and they have been regathered from many nations to Israel" will their enemies be totally destroyed in coming against Israel. Ez.38:8-12,14. From this time on the House of
Israel will know God is their Lord. And the nations will also know why God hid His face from
them. Ez.39:22-29.

Only then will God have "mercy on the houses of
Jacob and Israel". They must first be "brot back from the lands of their enemies where they had
remained while He hid His face from them".

It is quite amusing to me that you claim the
Jews "cannot return unless they repent". Many
among at least two tribes have returned as
Messianic Jews already being part of the Bride/Body of Christ!! Thousands of the Tribe of Manasseh are returning at a cost of $800 per
person from the Himalayas Mnts of India/Burma.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Jo$h]

'm sorry that you do not take the prophecy of
Ezek.38-39 literally as taking place in "the
last days" when the Jews will suddenly come to "know their God" as they did long ago.

I take the Bible literally in it's literary context. It is very obvious when taken literally when the last days were in the New Testament.

Heb 1:2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.

ACTS 2:16 ' This is that which is spoken by the prophet Joel: It shall come to pass in the last days , saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh

1 Jhn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour ; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour

1 Pet 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times

James 5:3 Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!

As you can see when taken literally the last days were 2000 years ago.

It is quite amusing to me that you claim the
Jews "cannot return unless they repent". Many
among at least two tribes have returned as
Messianic Jews already being part of the Bride/Body of Christ!! Thousands of the Tribe of Manasseh are returning at a cost of $800 per
person from the Himalayas Mnts of India/Burma.

Tribe of Manasseh

where did they get the geneological records for that when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

I know a way that is 800 dollars cheaper for anyone to go to the promise land, believe in Jesus Christ.

What is more amusing is that you completely ignore when Scripture says the Jews must be in a state of repentence to return to the land, and they must obey the mosaic covenant to dwell in the land.

The point I am making is if their is no covenant the land is not theirs. The true promise land is Jesus Christ. The regathering of Isreal already happened in the last days at pentecost. God did not regather them physically, He regathered them spiritually.